Civilian Militias

Discussion in 'Freedom and Liberty' started by Kingfish, Nov 25, 2011.

  1. Kingfish

    Kingfish Self Reliant

    As many of you know I am a member of the West Michigan Volunteers (Michigan Militia) corps. On many websites around the net the questions of Militias in war, battle and defense of the homeland has been questioned in today's modern warfare.

    The debate always seems to somehow end up about Militias engaging Military forces. Of course none of us think we could engage United States Military forces and in all fairness believe we would be on the same side.

    So my question is this, How many times in History have Militia forces(armed civilians) aided military forces in defeating invasion by foreign Armies?

    The best example of civilian Militias helping and succeeding were Russian Civilian Militia armed with nothing but ww1 bolt action rifles during the battle of Stalingrad and all along the front against Hitlers Invasion force.
    They engaged the Germans at very close range to take away the Nazi armor and air power, artillery . Casualties were extremely high but experts agreed that without those Militia involved the Germans would have overrun the soviets.

    I would like to discuss how Militias can help in the event that we are hit by EMP and invaded by the Soviets or the Chinese. Kingfish
  2. tacmotusn

    tacmotusn RIP 1/13/21

    Never Happen !!!

    Government Statistics tell us that at least one in three Americans owns a gun. Most I believe own multiple guns. Quite a few have a stockpile of ammo in common calibers. Only a handful of states or large cities have any significant registration records of weapons/owners/location.
    In my opinion, a foriegn invasion would be a no win situation for Russia or China. Unless our own government tries to disarm all civilians first ......
    I'll let you digest that one for a second. The USA population will not allow itself to be disarmed! It would cause succession of many States, and most likely, another civil war.
    So in my opinion, your discussion would be a moot point.
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  3. beast

    beast backwoodsman

    obuttface and his cronies wanna take our guns for one reason only
    so they can take our freedoms and give us to china
    they can come take my guns, anytime they want, ill just make more
    Kingfish likes this.
  4. Redneck Rebel

    Redneck Rebel Monkey++

    I think the Taliban & Iraqi insurgency have shown us that it is indeed possible.

    Depends how many troops decide to obey unconstitutional orders in exchange for a paycheck.
    Kingfish, Sapper John and Falcon15 like this.
  5. Alpha Dog

    Alpha Dog survival of the breed

    I think that if the Goverment keeps spreading our troops all over the world and SHTF here at home It will be left up to Civilan Milita's to protect and secure what is left. Hitler made the same mistake as our goverment is making today. He was fighting on to many fronts which made his military tired, weak, they lost sight of what they were doing. In no way am I or do I support what Hitler was doing, Im just saying look at how things could have been if he had slowed down and thought his moves out. If we are not careful it will leave us open to an invasion and we will be left to defend for ourselves.
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  6. Falcon15

    Falcon15 Falco Peregrinus

    The one and only time it was history changing: The Revolutionary War. That war was fought by Colonial Militias, manned by farmers, blacksmiths, preachers, regular everyday folks. The militias then, as now, had a component of "experienced" or "trained" military men, like George Washington, who led the Continental Army - of course that "army" was composed of militia units from each colony - New York, Virginia, Georgia, etc.

    They went up against the most powerful and technologically advanced army at the time and won. How and why? Well, they knew the land better than the invading army, and used guerrilla warfare tactics, desperation ploys (the crossing of the Delaware), and strong allies (France). There were several points in the war, the Continentals thought they were going to lose and lose badly. Most notably, lack of food, money, and equipment, along with desertions, deaths, and sheer overwhelming odds were the most commonly named worries and concerns in personal written accounts of the war.

    The Russian Milita had 3 advantages during the battle of Stalingrad. What were they? The bitter winter, the scorched earth tactics of the Russians, and gun lubricants.

    The winter was so bitter cold the Germans were suffering losses to the cold alone. As the German army advanced into Russia, the Russians, in fine Cossack fashion, retreated across the land, taking every bit of food they could and burning what they could not. As for gun lubricants, the Russians used whale oil and seal blubber to lubricate their weapons and equipment, which did not freeze in the sub-zero arctic temperatures. The Germans had petroleum based lubricants on their guns and equipment which froze solid in the biter cold.

    As to how can militias help in the even of EMP/Collapse and invasion? Fight. Fight a guerrilla war. Attack them when they sleep, attack them when they are weak and spread out. Snipe them when they are peeing in a latrine. Attack at a distance. Attack their leadership - aim for officers. DO NOT TRY TO TAKE THEM ON IN A HEAD TO HEAD FIREFIGHT. Hit and run tactics. Take a page from the Viet Cong. Take a page from the Taliban. Capture and use their equipment against the invaders. Hide deep in caves, out of the way areas, and mine roadways. Set up dead falls. Do anything and everything you can to reduce the invaders numbers and slow them down! Let the regular military engage in the toe-to-toe fighting, artillery exchanges, and the house to house or trench warfare.

    Admiral Yamamoto is quoted as saying, during the events of World War II:
    Yamamoto is also supposed to have said (but it is not been properly attributed to him) in regards to the invasion of the United States:

    While he may not have said it, it is absolutely true. As with anything, YMMV.These are my observations.
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  7. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    Kingfish, I applaud you, and your organization for the Prep and training that you do. I see the Militia Movement, in a different role. More like an ARMED Neighborhood Watch. If you are an outsider, (OR ZOMBIE) and are bent on causing trouble, in MY Neighborhood, Me and My Compatriots, will kindly FORCE you to move on, or die. I do not see ANY outside State invading North America, with the aim of conquering it, as it would be a Fools Errand, to even try. I see our OWN Federal Government trying to control the States, any way they can, and bought Politicos aiding and abetting that action. I do NOT see the US Military being involved, as the Officer Corp, just wouldn't obey such an order from ANY CinC, without grave consequences in play. I see City Folks who can't sustain themselves spreading out into the country, to try and take what they need to stay alive, and the local Militias, being the protectors of their communities, from that kind of invasion. Consider if Detroit no longer received any Trucks bringing food into the Grocery Stores for a month. Where would ALL those folks go? Out into the country, to take what they need... and who would STOP them? The local Sheriff and his Deputies would fall, in the first few days, so who does that leave? There just aren't enough LEOs to handle that kind of invasion. This gives your Militia Group the BIG Advantages, when dealing with these outsiders. You have Comms, they likely will not. You have firePower, they likely will be under Armed, in comparison. You have a Plan, Leaders, and Training, they are, a Hoard of Locusts, coming your way. You know the terrain, they don't have CLUE One. This basically means you Win, and they lose, as long as you can keep your group working as a Unit, and not fragmenting due to obvious causes. I would be doing my planning and training along those lines as that is the senerio I see as most likely. ..... YMMV....
    tulianr, Kingfish, dragonfly and 5 others like this.
  8. Falcon15

    Falcon15 Falco Peregrinus

    I concur with Bruce. That is pretty much how my group trains.
    Kingfish likes this.
  9. Seawolf1090

    Seawolf1090 Retired Curmudgeonly IT Monkey Founding Member

    Looking at The Revolutionary War closely, one comes away realizing without the French Army helping us, we'd have lost - period. That dalliance during time of war with England, cost them their empire and their economy for the remainder of French history. It pulled OUR cojones out of a huge fire we were NOT ready for.
    Still, our Minute Men were the bravest troops of their day, farmers, merchants, Lawyers and Doctors - NOT trained warriors. The Regular Officers training them were appalled at their roughness - but they answered the call.
    It would be the same with us - many of us would answer the call, ill equipped, a mishmash of hunting rifles, milsurps and a staggering array of different calibers of ammo - logistics would be a nightmare. Many more will be needed to cook, clean, doctor up wounds, act as observers, reload ammo, repair the weapons and gear, provide transportation (with the roads always watched by THEM).
    In the First Revolutionary War, I have read that the true patriots number only a tiny percentage of the total population. That would happen again. But he NUMBERS of us will be legion. ALL armed, all willing to fight and die for OUR NATION. Before the internal enemies of this nation begin a war that WILL result in THEIR deaths (no matter who is victorious!), they had better reread their history. Civilian Militias will not have the luxury of Internment Camps, Prisons and Trials. Justice against the enemies will be necessarily swift and final.
    Best to NOT chance the vagaries of Civil War - it just ain't 'civil'..... [stirpot]
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  10. Falcon15

    Falcon15 Falco Peregrinus

    3%. That is it. Just 3% of colonials fought the war.
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  11. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Someplace, somewhere, someone estimated that there are 80 million guns in private hands in the US. Crudely, 25% of the population COULD be armed, but we know that the majority of gun owners have more than one gun. Lets say an average of 3 per owner. So we are down to (roughly) 8% of the population that might be armed. Of that, there are without doubt a slew that would cave in and not fight for a bear biscuit. So maybe the reality is 3% would have to bear the burden. I can live with that, going to have to. But there will not be a rifle behind every blade of grass, at least to start.

    Hm. 3% of (say) 300 million (we know it's more) is 900,000 untrained against an unknown number of military, both internal and external troops, not counting defectors that can get out with their arms. Not encouraging odds. Yeah, there's lots of guesses in that, but the thought process looks sound, just used numbers someplace within the realm of approximate. Fill in your own numbers and see if the outlook improves.
  12. Falcon15

    Falcon15 Falco Peregrinus

    Ghrit, that is what greatness is made from. Regardless of the odds, men, and women, will stand and fight. There is a belief in what they fight for. Win or lose, live or die.

    "I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees." - Generale Emiliano Zapata Salizar

    He died, on his feet, a slave to his principles, not any man. I have no fear of death for I know where I go when I die. I will take however many of them I can with me.

    YMMV to each his own.
  13. Alpha Dog

    Alpha Dog survival of the breed

    We have a few guy's here that would fall in if needed we call it the Sheriff's posse. but the are citizens through out the County.
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  14. Tikka

    Tikka Monkey+++

    With tens of thousands leaving the cities every day; it would be an unstoppable plague.

    Kingfish likes this.
  15. Falcon15

    Falcon15 Falco Peregrinus

    In a SHTF/Collapse/WROL scenario - (not inclusive of an EMP/Grid down or pandemic panic scenario), there will not be tens of thousands leaving the cities, at least not at first, and rarely all at once, unless a massively nasty occurrence like a firestorm or hurricane drives them out. No single person is going to want to leave the security and safety of their "home" until the food runs out, and even then not right away. they will literally not leave until there is no food, they will leave if there is no water and no way of getting it. Some will even stay until they are on the brink of starvation, thinking "The government will drop food, they will send FEMA, the Red Cross is coming" thoughts along those lines - normalcy bias, its a real pain.

    I am going to place some facts right here: there are, according to the FBI National Gang Threat Assessment of 2011 fully 1.4 million active gang members in 30,000 total gangs - a 40% increase since 2009. Active. As in currently following gang activities etc. The number of "inactive" is higher still. That recent FBI document listed a startling fact: these gangs are recruiting out of and joining every single branch of the armed forces.

    However, I digress.

    Deaths from a serious SHTF scenario will be upwards of 75-80% of any population, the elderly, the critically ill, the ones who must have daily dialysis, those reliant on medications. We have discussed this before on other threads. Let us say within 1 month, 70-80% of the populace, is dead, from what ails them or lack of life saving medical help.

    Add in attrition - murders, falls, infected cuts, lack of potable water, disease going untreated or under treated, fires, people dying of heat stroke (summer) or freezing to death (winter), animal bites (unfed dogs going feral, and attacking in packs), take another 5-15% off of the total populace of any given major city. That is anywhere from 75%-95% of any major metropolitan area's populace dead within one solid month of a massive SHTF scenario. If the SHTF scenario is an EMP or Solar flare, and the city is one like Los Angeles that must have almost all of it's water pumped in from over the mountains, advance the timeline.

    There will be, in my opinion and the opinion of others I know, 3 waves of exodus from the cities.

    1st wave - lets call them the smart ones. The 1%. However, they are going to be leaving in dribs and drabs. Not all at once, and not all will take the same route. They will almost all, to a person, stick to major arteries of travel and not wander more than 1-2 miles off the highway. this exodus will last maybe a week before the slime balls get smart. The earliest ones out have the best chance. It will be small groups and families, say no more than 10 folks at a time. No real threat there.

    2nd wave - Lets call these the awakening sheep - 1 week, perhaps 1 and a half weeks after the event(s). Food is not available, the water is shut off. They are sick and weak from lack of food, lack of potable water. Many will not make it out of the city because the smart animals, the real low lives, will be set up on major roadways killing and looting the fleeing folks indiscriminately. These animals will also be roving gangs of looters, snatching what they want by force, killing any who stand in their way. These are the hard core urban gangs, the organized criminal packs of animals that within hours of a SHTF will have "liberated" several warehouse/dock areas/food distribution centers. I know of 5 within a 5 minute drive of my wife's grandparent's house and they live in "the bad part of town" where shootings and arson are common, nightly news occurrences. The animals with military training or recruited folks out of the military...they know where the military keeps its supplies and armaments. They may also have military trained personnel in their ranks.

    The ones that actually make it out in the second wave will be the lucky, frightened, near starving, most likely sick ones that crept out on not so commonly traveled routes. Lets be nice and say 1% make it out. Scattered across a wide area, not much threat there.

    Wave 3 will be the worst. This will contain the real bad element that sees the handwriting on the wall. Corpses piling up in the streets, disease running rampant, supplies running low, intermittent block to block warfare between rival "gangs". Based on best case scenario calculations, 1 to 2 months after a SHTF scenario, the Golden Horde heads out. These are going to have their own problems (loose organization, fuel needs, water needs, food needs), they will very likely stay on the major arteries of travel (man is a curious animal, 99.9% of the time, they take the path of least resistance, even if going a different route will shave their travel time in HALF), and if they are smart send scouts out 2-3 miles off the highway to find fuel, food, supplies that the first couple of waves or other survivors may have missed. These are the ones small towns and rural settlements on major roadways, and perhaps secondary roadways, will fear and have the worst time with.

    Just an opinion, YMMV. All postulation anyhow. Fictional, you know...
  16. tacmotusn

    tacmotusn RIP 1/13/21

    Ghrit, I think your data might be dated. Just did a search and found interesting statistics from the early 70s until just last year. The percentage was only in the mid 20s in the early 70s. Has been constantly growing 37% in 80s. Definately low to mid 40% in the 90s thru Today
    In 2005 the average household with guns had 4.4 firearms. If population was 225,000,000 in 2005 and 40% of all households had firearms, and in 2007 the average household was 2.6 people (slow decline from 1970 at 3.1), that would mean 86,538,538 households in USA total. 40% or 34,615,415 households have firearms at 4.4 firearms per, for a grand total of 152,307,826 firearms to arm the civilian militia.
    Okay, I am done playing with the numbers, but I think their are more out there than that. [stirpot]
    Kingfish likes this.
  17. beast

    beast backwoodsman

    then there are those like me that have no firearms on any record anywhere :)
  18. VisuTrac

    VisuTrac Ваша мать носит военные ботинки Site Supporter+++

    Just remember, abarring stars and stripes being worn, shoot the one's giving the orders first if possible.

    If i had to hazard a guess, It will not be an external invasion. More than likely a internal power collapse, and the roving hoards from the inner city heading out to pillage the country side. (please let it be winter)

    mostly skirmishes with those knowing the location having the upper hand. Each will be trying to protect their AO's from those that didn't prepare.

    that is my opinion.

    BUT, if it's a trained military against a militia. The word bloodbath comes to mind. Well equipped military units against small enclaves don't bode well at first. Until the militia counters like the european resistance, vietcong, taliban, and our forefathers, hit and run, hide in plain sight, sabotage and assinations. Then things will settle in for the long sleepless struggle.
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  19. dragonfly

    dragonfly Monkey+++

    Guerilla warfare is a bear to go up against...So those that would be "organized" such as our own Military ( which I cannot fathom ever happening)would be facing a monstrosity of an engagement...every corner they turned.
    Ok, I'm depressed now...think I'll go to my room and cry! (while cleaning a few rifles that is!) Maybe the "group"we would be up against is none other than Obomba lomba ding dongs own homegrown types....Or perhaps the well armed militant's: new black panthers, but NOT in the outskirts/rural areas of the States...more apt to be in the center of every major metro area.
    I don't know....The Chinese want our resources and they also have an increasing need for our women...I doubt they'd do anything to create such a mess....But, ya never know....!
    Alpha Dog and Kingfish like this.
  20. VisuTrac

    VisuTrac Ваша мать носит военные ботинки Site Supporter+++


    Only mindless brownshirts would follow illegal orders by illegitimate or treasonous leaders would actually attack the citizens of these United States.

    If the order came I'd be less worried about the standing army but more about our police forces. Before anyone jumps all over me I am not saying all police are just barely beyond Neanderthals but there are a number of them. Lots of them don't understand that they are more powerful than the military in their constitutional duties on our sovereign soil.

    But there are a number of them that would be willing to do the bidding of their faux masters and come down on us like a runaway train.

    The recent use of Pepper spray (it's a condiment I hear) on the peaceful protesters at UC Davis goes to show how willing they are to escalate, not use their brains because their superior said 'Do it'. Peaceful protest is a protected civil right. Whether you agree with them our not. Think that they are a nuisance or not. Hate them or not. They were within their rights to protest whatever the hell they want.

    Anyway, I digress. It will be our police forces that have forgotten the constitution, that want to please the puppetmasters that pull their strings. Those are the ones that we should be keeping our eyes on in the days to come. Especially as they become increasingly militarized.

    I think our military personnel would think of the vast majority of the US Population as Citizens of the Country they fought and died for. Police would just look at us as civilians (i.e. not part of the club)

    And then the roving hoards, but they will just be a nuisance

    As a side note and future reference, a large number of the police APC's
    the driver sits in the left front, passengers exit the rear, the two pods on either side of the rear door house external fuel tanks.
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