1. The Topic of the Month for October is "Make this the Perfect Bugout Location". Please join the discussion in the TOTM forum.

Couple of nice pictures to comment on

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Seacowboys, Nov 18, 2007.

  1. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    Here they are
    GSA. FEMA.
  2. ColtCarbine

    ColtCarbine Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Had no idea FEMA employees were police officers, just friggin' great.

    What's the other agency, never heard of them?

    What's next, politicians gonna wear a badge too?
  3. griffin1340

    griffin1340 Monkey+++

    The GSA Federal Protective Service has been the ones who guard Military bases and power stations ect.
    The FEMA one is new to me!
    Let me guess the FEMA ones are 'door kicking, kitty stomping JBT's' trained like ATF & DEA.[patr]

    But then again, the Dept of Agriculture, Indian Affairs, and Department of Commerce all have the 'ability' and 'authority' to carry police credentials and firearms..as well as many other 'alphabet soup' agency's.
  4. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    Please tell me the FEMA one is a fake...... please.
  5. Tracy

    Tracy Insatiably Curious Moderator Founding Member

    Nope. Understated.

    Every employee is going to wear an ID badge.
  6. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I believe that most Department's have their own police force. Nothing new, nothing to get excited about. There are a lot of job series that are called Police Officer even if they are just security. Reviewing www.usajobs.com (Gov. job openings website) even Secret Service is under Dept. of Homeland Security and classifies their officers under "police"


    <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 xmlns:fo="http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Format"><TBODY><TR><TD class=Title vAlign=top noWrap align=left>MAJOR DUTIES:</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>
    <SCRIPT language=Javascript> BackToTop(); </SCRIPT>Top [​IMG]</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>"Uniformed Division officers provide protection for the United States President, Vice President, President-elect, Vice President-elect, their immediate families, former Presidents, their spouses and minor children until age 16, visiting foreign heads of states/governments, their accompanying spouses, major Presidential and Vice Presidential candidates, their spouses, and others designated by law. In addition, Uniformed Division officers provide protection for The White House Complex, The Vice President’s Residence, The Main Treasury Building and Annex, and foreign diplomatic missions and embassies in the <?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = ST1 /><ST1:pLACE w:st="on"><ST1:CITY w:st="on">Washington</ST1:CITY>, <ST1:STATE w:st="on">D.C.</ST1:STATE></ST1:pLACE> area. Uniformed Division officers also travel in support of the Presidential, Vice Presidential, and foreign heads of state/government missions. Uniformed Division officers are also responsible for the enforcement of mandated protective responsibilities as described under Title 3, United States Code, Section 202."

    Now relax people and find something to really get excited about.
  7. Tracy

    Tracy Insatiably Curious Moderator Founding Member

    It's Sunday! [touchdown]Woo Hoo!
  8. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    hell, even the EPA is armed anymore and I hear the department of agriculture too!!several good articles here:
    <table width="100%"><tbody><tr><td>

    : Doug Fiedor fiedor19@eos.net
    Previous Editions at: http://mmc.cns.net/headsup.html
    </td> <td align="right" valign="top">[​IMG]</td> </tr> </tbody></table> [SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0]When an old friend, who is a career federal bureaucrat above the "GS" level, called one afternoon last week to chit-chat, I should have realized there may have also been an ulterior motive. He was, after all, calling from work. About ten minutes into the conversation he asked why this publication is so hard on the people working for the federal regulatory agencies.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0]'Because they are there, and should not be,' I wanted to answer. But I did not. Instead, I played the game, began my own opening gambit, and turned it around so he was on the defensive.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0]How many search warrants did your agency serve these past few weeks?" I eventually asked.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0]A few," he reluctantly answered.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0]How many with guns drawn and agents looking and acting like a SWAT team?" I then inquired.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0]That is for the protection of the agents. . . . . ." he tried to jive me.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0]Uh huh. Sure.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0]Lately, even FEMA and EPA started doing that. Where once, regulators came in dressed in normal business attire, now they bring a "team" wearing bullet proof vests and brandishing military-style guns.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0]Reports are that a FEMA team "raided" a county flood management office recently, vested and guns at the ready. They even brought along a search warrant. Except that the only thing on the warrant was the judges signature and the word "sealed." They confiscated box- loads of public documents -- documents that were always available for anyone in the world to walk in and read. And, of course, they terrified (or is it terrorized?) the staff working the office in the process.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0]Same with the EPA. Nowadays, if they visit a business suspected of spilling hazardous materials, they often bring along a SWAT team and act like they're going after a gang of armed bank robbers. Just a few years ago, that type of thing was handled by one man carrying nothing more ominous than a notebook.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0]This is called lack of respect. It's the "them" against "us" mentality. Each year, the federal government ramps-up the aggression level. Today, many federal regulators act like they have absolutely no respect for the American public. Sure, they are not all like that -- yet. But, how many of these reports do we need before we voters start putting pressure on elected officials to get them stopped?[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0]IRS used a SWAT team to "take over" a day care center, kids and all. FDA brought along a SWAT team to "raid" a vitamin store. The BLM brought an armed posse to confront two hunters. Fish and Wildlife delivered a SWAT team by armed military choppers. Yet, in none of these cases was any wrongdoing ever proven.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0]The problem is, neither was any of these agencies punished for use of excessive force (or stupidity!). Clearly, these people are out of control.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0]It's our fault, too. These are, after all, public servants. Therefore, we can, with a little effort, have them fired. Federal agencies like FEMA, EPA, BLM and OSHA do not need guns. There are only a few real federal police agencies: Marshals, DEA, FBI and BATF immediately come to mind. These other agencies are only regulatory and tax collection agencies.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0]Worse yet, for the most part, these armed regulators are people with no firearms training. Police academies last at least ten or twelve weeks. Many of the armed federal bureaucrats confronting American citizens do not even have ten or twelve minutes firearms or police training. In fact, some of them never even had a firearms safety course. Yet, in some cases, they're carrying fully automatic weapons. This is not good![/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0]For the safety of the American public, all federal regulatory agencies should be completely disarmed.[alien][patr][patr][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
  9. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Along these lines; more on big armed egos at the EPA(10/2004):

    EULESS - Ashley Owen White never dreamed that one day she would be pulled over and accused of speeding by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.
    But on Oct. 21, that's what happened, leaving the 26-year-old family counselor scared and perplexed. All she wanted, she said Thursday, "was to vote early."
    Euless police reports state that an EPA special agent pulled White over in the parking lot of Trinity High School. White, of Bedford, said the agent never gave her a badge number or name after he stopped her in an unmarked sports utility vehicle.
    A Tarrant county prosecutor said the EPA agent had authority to stop her, but state laws appear to say different.
    The incident is an internal matter, said Warren Amburn of the EPA's Criminal Investigation Division in Dallas, where the agent, Carlton Patton, works.
    Patton could not be reached Thursday for comment.
    White said she plans to file a complaint against the agent with Euless police.
    "I was crying after Euless police arrived because I still didn't know what his intentions were at that time," White said. "I was shaking."
    Patton saw White driving a BMW traveling 30 to 35 mph in a 25 mph school zone in front of Euless Junior High about 3 p.m. Oct. 21, according to Euless police reports.
    In an interview Thursday, White said she wasn't speeding. She said she was on the access road heading toward the Euless Library for early voting.
    At the next traffic signal, Patton pulled up beside White, waved at her and rolled down his window, reports state. He told her that she needed to slow down in the school zone. She looked away, but he got her attention again by waving, and then flashed a badge. White saw the badge but didn't get the number, she said.
    White drove through the intersection, and reports say Patton followed and turned on his emergency lights. He stopped her in the parking lot of Trinity High School, the reports state.
    The reports say Patton and White accused each other of refusing to provide identification.
    "He finally said he was a special agent with the EPA," White said Thursday. "That's when I answered, 'And you pulled me over for what?' Patton said he was heading up a program to keep kids safe in school zones, White said.
    "I had heard of people impersonating officers and then raping female victims," White said. "I kept asking him for his badge and name, and he wouldn't give it to me. I was on the phone with my husband and Dad, and they kept telling me to drive off, but I wanted to get his badge number and name."
    Although she never got the badge number and name, Patton's business card was attached to police reports.
    Sometime during the incident, Patton called Euless police for backup, according to reports. Two patrol officers arrived. White was allowed to leave without being issued a speeding ticket. Patton also left after talking to officers.
    Euless police Lt. Steve Eskew said Thursday that the department was not investigating.
    A Tarrant County prosecutor said Thursday that the EPA agent did have authority.
    "His version was that there was a breach of peace because she was speeding and almost hit a vehicle," said Kurt Stallings, a Tarrant County assistant district attorney who spoke to EPA officials in Washington about the matter Thursday.
    The Euless police report does not mention White nearly hitting a vehicle.
    The Texas Code of Criminal Procedure defines 34 types of peace officers in the state, including police officers and deputies, who may arrest someone without a warrant if the offense is a felony or an offense against the public peace, including traffic offenses.
    The code of criminal procedure also notes that criminal investigators of the United States are not peace officers of the state, but they have the power to arrest, search or seizure during a felony.
    Under the Texas Penal Code, speeding in a school zone is not a felony.
  10. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member


    This is utter bulls*it. FLETC (Federal Law Enforcment Training Center) located in Artesia, NM and Glynco, Ga. are the big law enforcement training centers. Agents from 80 different agencies spend anywhere from 12 weeks to six months of continuous training. Nobody carries a firearm that does not have a ton of training. I do not argue that SWAT is over-used, but do not think for a second that untrained agents are running around.

    Just because you read it on the internet, doesn't make it true. Don't take my word for it either, do the research.
  11. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++


    I've met them, I've been to the range with them, their training was woefully inadequate, and they have no business being armed.

    I know the following story is not federal, it's state, but I've met armed federal employees with equally piss poor training.

    You may remember as I was going through my Corrections training... a woman who cried when she fired a carbine... well now she's carrying a Remington 870 12 gauge with #4 buck. Not because she got lots of training, but because they got tired of messin with her and didn't want to fire her. And she's not confined to the prison grounds. In case of an escape, she could be stationed in a residential area with that shotgun.
  12. ozarkgoatman

    ozarkgoatman Resident goat herder

    I know I've seen LEO's that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn if they were inside of the barn. :shock: Nobody in their right mind would have wanted them covering them, but they are armed and ready to go. (yea right)

  13. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

  14. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    I spent some time in local and county LE also and saw the same thing. I was on the street armed for several weeks before I was ever given any kind of firearms training. And that was voluntary!! At that time we were not required to recieve CLEET certification.
    Feds may be more restrictive and that was some years ago but, the story is not about the level of training, it is the escalating use of uneccessary force and the mentality being developed and fostered in LEO organizations on all levels that "we" the citizenry are a threat and the "enemy". This is the crux of the problem.
    And it may not be "that bad" in some agencies now, but that just means that the water hasn't reached the point that it is starting to boil.
  15. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    I've been to fletc (glynco ga)("alepc" advanced law enforcement photography course; only )(hq afosi head photographer and a good friend was contracted to teach that course for several years. I'm aware fletc is a generic training ground for "agents" of many flavors, I just don't think any Epa/ blm/(no offense) usda/osha regulatory agent has any business to perform a traffic stop( enforcing state law). Or the need for swat trained teams...But then I'm old school(and been wrong before)...
  16. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I could see a good reason for these agents to be trained in use of firearms and carrying them. I say this basicly because of the fact that most of the ones mentioned (EPA, FDA, USDA, OSHA, etc) have jobs with the authority to carry out actions that could cost everyone in their vecinity their livelyhood and the owners of the places they go as much as MANY millions of dollars (they find a violation and can potentialy shut down the company) and I could see a LOT of folks getting rather...shall we say unplesant, over things like that. So I could see their jobs becomeing very dangerous and potentialy requireing them to defend themselves in the process of fulfilling their jobs.

    It COULD also be argued that they should have their own strike teams to go in when they have o shut the places down for the same reasons but I personaly think they could just call for an escort from the locals on that.

    All of that said, while the Fed employees who carry may have to go through alot of training, that dont mean it will stick (I also suspect there are some of the ones where the weapon isnt a main part off their job who get out of the training). I know one shineing example of a Fed employee who has been heavily trained in use of firearms because they are central to his job. He retired from military and works for a security firm that guards the military base, he is/was an armorer and firearms instructor. I hate to be around him when he has a gun because the guy will muzzel sweep everyone and everything in the area worse than if you handed the average soccer mom a gun. There is no way, given his handeling of firarms that I would guess he had any training with them or say that he should be carrying them. So even if they GET training its kind of like our schools now, you get an education but it dont matter if you can read or not you still graduate.
  17. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I agree. It will be interesting to see what happens with the case. We have always been told that as long as we were acting within the scope of our duties we would be backed, and protected from law suits. Sounds like this individual wasn't.

    As far as carrying goes, I can see why agencies do different things. I have know a few of our CSIs that have gotten shot at, and three of our Compliance Investigators were killed a few years back. Shot repeatedly, then executed with the coup de grace'. While our OIG branch carries, our Compliance Investigators still do not. They do go to Artesia/Glynco for lots of verbal judo/conflict de-escalation training, evasive driving, etc. That doesn't do a lot though if you show up somewhere and someone points a gun in your face. Our Compliance Investigators are the liason between our CSIs who do the initial inspection work, and the Federal Prosecutors. They are often put in precarious situations with no backup. Eventually, after my oldest heads to college this is where I will be. And in the back of my mind like my colleagues I will be wondering if this is the time I will be taking a pen and clipboard to a gun fight.

    As to the point of the thread, I do agree there are way too many SWAT invasions. A while back do to a bad informant the SWAT team burst into my little brother's apartment looking for something that wasn't there. My little brother was not there, he was at work, but instead of knocking on the door, they knocked it off of the hinges. Needless to say they kept his very pregnant girlfriend in handcuffs for three hours. She had a hard time caring for their year and a half old daughter while wearing handcuffs (for her own protection of course.) It is a good thing that I was not there. I know they would have thrown me in jail for the hell I would have raised.
    They have talked to a lawyer, but in the end nothing will happen.

    I am not a proponet of the "no-knock". In the end I believe it will get innocent people killed, more than it would protect. I have friends that would be part of the [patr]team, and I would hate to see one of them killed or injured because of a policy. Some poor guy is wrongly targeted and awaken by loud noises then suddenly reaches for his gun and..............
  18. weapons_762

    weapons_762 Monkey+++

    i like these better

    diplomacy2. patriot_qual_target.
    diplomacy2. patriot_qual_target.
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