Curious about something defense-related?

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by teeter, Oct 21, 2011.

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  1. teeter

    teeter Monkey+

    I've been lurking at many forums for a many weeks now, and I almost never see anyone mentioning times when it comes to shooting? Now, practically everyone knows that for normal times, anyway, justifiable civilian self defense happens at very close ranges, 20 ft and less. It's also commonly known that a fast man can charge,stab or club you in 2.0 seconds or less from 20 feet away (assuming a standing start). Therefore, it is unreasonable to just presume that you are going to have more than 2 seconds, total, to do your thing when attacked, correct? If he has a gun,it is reasonable to assume that you will have even less time, before you are hit by one of they enemy's bullets, true? Yet I have almost never seen any reference to how fast anyone is, either from the holster or starting with gun in hand?

    Ditto, in shtf or military rifle combat, anyone can safely drop to prone in 1.0 second, so why does nearly everyone just assume that they will have an upright, stationary, frontal torso, head, arms and legs to shoot at? Yet nearly everyone does, when it comes to claiming "so and so" many yds of "effective range?" What they should be shooting at is something like a 10" diameter circle, because that's about the size of a head-on prone man as a target. That is a lot less square inches to hit than a 12"x24" torso, even without the head,neck, legs and arms, eh? 78 square inches vs 400 or so square inches.

    If the guy is offering a nice target, he's obviously unaware of your presence, so why would you fire at an "iffy" range? Why not let him get closer, get closer yourself, or just let him pass you by, remaining unaware of you?
  2. Opinionated

    Opinionated Monkey+

    Interesting post!

    May I ask a question please?

    You said:

    Where the documentation to support this is?

    I can find no "study" documenting this done in the last few decades. Recent (the last decade) statistics from the local law enforcement agencies here most certainly do not. [dunno]

    Thank you, in advance.
  3. dragonfly

    dragonfly Monkey+++

    Since my oldest son is a deputy and a detective, I'd like to know where you got your information as well!
    Thanks in advance for the reponse!
  4. Tikka

    Tikka Monkey+++

    If and when you get ambushed; you are in the kill zone. They want you to stay. The next question is do you run at or away from the enemy?

    That depends on whether you are the hunter or the hunted. Can you afford the noise? Even from him screaming in pain? Is he alone or a point man?

    Because it is something anyone can look up and everything they look up includes the weapon's "effective range"... :D

    Never forget, the internet is a place were technical expertise can often triumph over application experience. ;)

    Don't dwell so much on the war stuff.
  5. GrandpaDave

    GrandpaDave Monkey++

    I can tell you from personal experience that 90% of the time you learn your in a gun fight only after someone is shooting at you... and no two gunfights are ever the same.

    For many years, we have been taught that armed confrontations occur at very close distances (often times at arm's length), that few shots are fired and the person involved usually misses. These statistics were compiled from the FBI's Officer Killed Summary, which are released on an annual basis. Note that the operative word here is killed; these are officers that lost their confrontation. Have you ever wondered what happened with the officers that won? Did they do anything different to help ensure they would prevail?
    I've seen one FBI stat were just over 90% of shoot outs occurred with in 10 feet the the PMA study showed the average distance being more like twenty. both studies do agree that in said gun fight only 10% of the shoots fired hit their intended target.

    From all these reports the one and only valid conclusion that could be made, that one clue to staying alive, is that all the survivors had one thing in common... they kept the front sight within their cone of vision!!! Again my personal take is when they happen they start and end fast as in the blink of an eye... it's only later that when you remember events they take on that slo-mo quality...

    If you want to read a really good in-depth on this subject go to this article by another Dave...
    What Really Happens In A Gunfight?

    Edit to add: Tikka...
    there is only one way to survive an ambush... get up and charge the line... firing as you run to keep them from taking careful aim... dont stop either you keep right on running right past them... no this not just macho mumbo jumbo... the marines did a careful study and that is what they found to be the only good option...
  6. Falcon15

    Falcon15 Falco Peregrinus

  7. Tikka

    Tikka Monkey+++

    As I wasn't a Marine; I don't know about the Marine study. I do know it is what was taught in 11B AIT in the 1960s.

    I'm not too sure I'd keep running as it could show them my back without me shooting at them to keep their heads down. ;)
    There are lots of "moves" so what happens next depends; however, the best first move is right into their face.
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