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custom milsurp Mauser - hookerlloyd

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by ghrit, Dec 31, 2010.

  1. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    Moved from the tech manual thread.

    Alrighty then, I'll answer some of your questions here, as well as throw in some miscellaneous comments.
    1) There is no such thing (and never was) as 7.92 8mm NATO. NATOs first standardized cartridge was the 7.62X51. Prior to that, there was no standard NATO round, each member nation fielded what they had or felt like. The 7.62 NATO was derived from the commercial .308 Winchester, and was made standard in the early 50s, IIRC. Of course, you know that the standard now is 5.56X45.
    2) You referred to 8mm 187(?) gr rounds, undoubtedly milsurp. Not a long range round, but of better than military standards today which are around (again, IIRC) 2 MOA in standard issue arms. Select arms and ammo can do better, and often do. The milsurp you have is not select, and can't be expected to perform any better in your rifle.
    3) We can't tell from here what your customized rifle might be able to do, since we don't (yet) know what mods your smith did for you. Don't expect anything better than miltary accuracy at best.
    4) If you are using milsurp, then cleaning out the salts as soon as you are done for the day is important to preserve the steel as you know. Yes, hot water will do the job, but Hoppe's (and other bore cleaners) is better in that it also coats the steel against corrosion from water that you don't get out with heat. IMO, and that's what I do with my MNs. No more corrosion than when I got them, and I've pushed a number of Berdan primed milsurp thru them. Don't use a stainless brush unless the barrel is pitted. IMO, fiber is best, bronze OK, neither will wear the steel barrel.
    5) In the chatbox, you asked if anyone heard of muzzle wear from steel cleaning rods. Yes, very common in old military barrels that could not be (or were not) cleaned from the breech. There are two "fixes" in common use, first, cut off the damaged rifling from the muzzle and recrown it, the second is to backbore the muzzle past the damaged section of rifling. Arguably, the most important item for accuracy is a concentric muzzle with no burrs. (Competitive shooters treat their muzzles better than they treat their SOs.)
    6) Reloading your 8mm casings is a chore best left to experienced reloaders that have the necessary equipment to deprime and machine the primer pocket for Boxer primers. Or you can figure out how to get the expended primer out (hydraulic deprimers are the only way I've heard of to get that done) and reprime with Berdan primers if you can find them. Pretty scarce.
    7) One of our other comms indicated you used some hot handloads in the past that made the bolt sticky. I think I commented on that already (there was some rum around here last night), but again, a sticky bolt is an early sign of overpressure loads. If those were in this rifle you are talking about, I hope you told your smith about it so he could check for damage to the piece when he did the mods. Mauser actions are pretty tough, but not indestructible. Look for cracks at the base of the bolt lugs and receiver ring, might want to do a dye pen test that will show cracks that can't be eyeballed. And, of course, check the expended rounds for cratered or partially pushed out primers in those rounds that stuck the bolt.
    8) You indicate an interest in "long range" shooting. Somehow, I get the idea (forgive the presumption) you are fairly new to the game. I have to repeat my doubts about your groups at 400(?) yards, the roughly 2 inch 2 shot groups are (I'll state categorically) impossible; that's about 1/2 MOA which is not credible from a milsurp barrel, even off a machine rest. (And the paint bucket at 3/4 of a mile is pure bunkum discounting a large helping of luck.)

    All that said, you are in a pretty good position to start the game. Your Mauser is a sound platform if your smith did a decent job. It's time to practice, starting at reasonable distances to tune your skills and figure out what you need to reduce group sizes. You first, gun second, ammo third, mix well with time and money, and you should be able to get 1 MOA with irons and better with a scope (probably not with a milsurp barrel.) Here starts the arguments over hardware, but I'll start off with saying 400 yards is pushing and wishing for better than 2MOA at "long" range off a bench with your current rifle. For me, and maybe me only, "long" starts at 150 yards regardless of gun. (I blame my eyes, there's always a "reason."). There are folks on the site that think "long" is over 400, but they have miles off their back porch.
  2. Maxflax

    Maxflax Lightning in a bottle

    I have a 7.62 NATO chambered M98 Mauser (heavy stepped military barrel) that will do 1 MOA with my handloads and iron safari sights. I had to do a triple take when I first got the gun zeroed in, because that is fabulous. I doubt an old 8MM surplus barrel can get close to that

    Here is the field expedient and the range version of cleaning for salted primers in your Mosin Nagant, AK or other rifle that shoots salted primer ammo

    Field expedient: Carry a small bottle of Windex or a generic copy, remove your bolt (Pull the trigger, keep it pulled, remove bolt) wet a patch and run in down the bore from the chamber end, replacing it with each pass. Do this several times and then use a bore brush and a bit of the Windex in the same manner. Then one more patch to remove excess salts, then use a normal bore cleaner/protectant like Hoppes #9/CLP. The AK47 cheapie East block cleaning pouches with the pull through patch/brush string are great for this, and each of your rifles should have such a kit with a spare small bottle for the Windex. You can get each of these field kits together for a few measly bucks

    Range method/best way to protect your bore: Bring a thermos along filled with red hot water (I use a teapot to heat the water) and with a tablespoon or two of hand dishwashing detergent, and a suitable funnel to direct the hot mix into your chamber end. Bring along a cleaning rod or pull through string/brush. Remove bolt, use funnel to pour 1/4 to 1/3 of the hot mix slowly down the bore. Then run a bore brush through once, then repeat until you use up the hot mix. Then blow out excess moisture with your superman breath [​IMG] or compressed air (The heat will quickly dry the bore) and spray some WD40 or Breakfree down the bore. When you get home clean normally. Always use a chamber brush, too. I've found the nylon brushes on the twisted wire, the kind with the round loop end, bent 90 degrees, makes a great chamber cleaner. Crank it back and forth a few times and you're set. I also clean the gun again several times in the next week.. it only take a few minutes to run some Hoppes/CLP and a brush then a patch through once. Good insurance for your bore. Be sure to use a toothbrush and some cleaner on the bolt face, and wipe the bolt down at least once

    Not much trouble for the $$ you save on surplus ammo, and cheap means you can stack it deep
  3. Hispeedal2

    Hispeedal2 Nay Sayer

    All good tips above ^

    I will add that a lot of people worry too much over corrosive ammo. It wasn't so long ago that our grandfathers only had corrosive ammo to shoot. A lot of those old guns are still around with excellent bores. A good cleaning routine.... it's a simple solution to an age old problem ;)
  4. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    :lol: I've cleaned muzzle loaders in a bathtub of hot water and a tight fitting patch used to pump the hot up and down from the muzzle with the flashhole under water. Works well, and the hotter the better. (SWMBO wasn't too happy with the bathtub ring, but she got over it.) When the water runs clear out the touchhole, set the barrel aside so the heat will dry it, then get oils where they will do what they are supposed to do, and don't forget to wipe the oil out before the next shooting session.

    Personally, I don't care for hot water in the more modern rifles (meaning repeaters) there are too many places for water to hide and make for gotchas down in the trigger mechanisms at a later date. Someplace, I've got a mix that will neutralize salts from corrosive primers and powders (not black powders) that is mostly ammonia and something, all are volatile and will evaporate rather than hang around and rust things where you can't see it readily. Net of it is, the components of the mix are essentially the same as Windex. So I take windex to the range for stopgap on my MNs until I can get to the cleaning bench.
  5. Hispeedal2

    Hispeedal2 Nay Sayer

    I agree. I may or may not have used hot water on some modern gov't weaponry. If it's hot enough, the metal heats up and it sort of "self dries". A quick douse of oil and it's done. I have used the "ammonia" tip for surplus rifles. Upon further reading, I learned that it was likely the water in windex that neutralizes the salts, not the ammonia. I think I believe it. The jury is still out.

    If I am shooting a modern built gun, say a nicely built AR, and I know the primers aren't corrosive, I am terrible about cleaning. That carbine from the SHTF AR thread still hasn't been cleaned. I have a dirty SCAR right now. I did finally break down and clean virtually all the handguns. My 629 had so much lead and carbon stuck to the front of the cylinder it took a great deal of scrubbing. Of course, I've never cleaned it and carried it all through deer season.
  6. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    I used American Pioneer Powder ( super clean powder) in my 54 Hawken to clean it I slide surgical tubing over the nipple and make it long enough with the stock on the floor and the muzzle point upward the tubing will reach a container of warm water and I use a patch on the ram rod and run it up and down the inside of the barrel and it creates a suction drawing the fluid to the top of the bore.
    The American Pioneer Powder is so clean shooting it doesn't take very long to clean.
    I then do the same as Ghirt with the rest.
  7. Hispeedal2

    Hispeedal2 Nay Sayer

    Kind of off topic, but how do some of these cleaner powders do with flint locks?? Is there one that is fine enough to use in the flash pan? Anyone use a combo of clean powder and FFFG maybe?
  8. Maxflax

    Maxflax Lightning in a bottle

    Use hot water and blow out the crevices. Worked for me for 26 years so far on all sorts of modern weapons
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