Denial Stops Here: Global Climate Change

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Stratovarius, Jan 26, 2007.

  1. Stratovarius

    Stratovarius Monkey+++

    Sorry O'Reilly, global warming is NOT a liberal scare tactic.

    We're ruining earth, scientists warm

    What is there to deny? What is the debate? Why do people keep lumping silly politics and science together?
  2. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    U.n report, biased in my book...I was a big fan of human based globalwarming until someone brought up the question of the easily documented past ice ages the earth has moved into, through; and out of all by itself... :)
  3. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    I've got to conclude as Tango has. I've not seen any conclusive evidence yet.

    Would it surprise me-no.
    Do I think we need to take care with the environment-yes.

    It reminds me of when I was a kid and "acid rain" was the big scare. My 7th grade science teacher had me convinced that by the time I was an adult, I'd have no place left to fish because all the lakes would be dead...... well, more than 25 years later, my lakes are no more acidic than they were then. Granted acid rain has caused some damage in some places, but not anything remotely near what their "undeniable evidence" suggested.
  4. Stratovarius

    Stratovarius Monkey+++

    The question is when and what should we do. Obviously if we just keep pumping CO2 in the atmosphere, cutting down forests, fishing out the oceans and whatever else we decide to do, nature will backfire somehow.
  5. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    I can agree with that totally Strat, I would like to see this entire country move to solar power immediately, among other things. I'd like all countries to be more careful and respectful of the environment, but here's the problem:

    The powers that be in the eco-scientific community lie and overstate problems to garner support for their agenda. When they do that, just like they did 30 years ago with acid rain, and then the world doesn't end, people won't believe them the next time they come up with an impending disaster..... (the boy who cried wolf).

    I'd love to see us take better care of the earth, but they can't do it by lying and panic mongering.
  6. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    +1I like renwewables in a big way I'd like to be off the grid someday.;and I'd buy an electric car(truck tomorrow) if I needed a vehicle and they were available,3major moving parts, armature and the two bearings it rides in, but they can'tsell oil/airfilters, brake pads and clutchdisks( regenerativebraking taks a bi g load off the brakes, andelectric motors create maximum torque from stopped so a clutch really isn't necessary.
    I believe we will see the stopping of the "geatconveyor" ocean currents as big al predicts, inour lifetime... :(
  7. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    Strat my friend, you are obviously the product of a public school education. No offense, most people are. The problem is that public education is so far behind the times that you can't trust the "Facts" that your teachers are teaching you.

    When my kids were in high school they came home convinced that we were only a few years away from destroying the earth.
    It took a lot of deprogramming on my part to get them to see the facts.

    The "facts" are that there are no "facts" supporting global warming, the depletion of the ozone, or any other current greenpeace pet cause.
    They are all Theories. And not Fact. But they are the current trend and get the air time.

    Blackjack makes a good point in that the "Enviromental Crises" of our day faded away and are not in voque today. I believe such will be the fate of global warming. When I was in high school we were being taught that we were about to enter another ice age. That the temps were dropping and that we would all be living like eskimos in the heartland in a generation.

    We have only been able to gage such things and to see these Earth changes in the last couple of generations and we do not know how to interpet the data correctly yet. All of these enviromental crises are only the opinions of a few scientists who really aren't sure how to interpret what they are seeing.

    So don't get to worked up over these things. There is no immenint crises that we have to take action now to avert. Take a wait and see approach. You'll find that the "scientific evidence" seems to change every few years.

    Here are a few documented facts that you won't learn in school;

    You are taught that we are cutting down our forrests and that we are in danger of not producing enough oxygen etc.
    The fact is that we have more trees in the US today than we did when we became a nation 200 years ago.How is that possible???
    Logging is a business. For every tree that is cut down they plant two. If they didn't the industry would destroy itself. Not very good business practice. Plus, 200 years ago we had no way to combat massive forrest fires. Today we extinguish them soon after they start limiting the damage done and the forrest destroyed.

    The Co2 that modern man and his modern tools emit into the air is destroying the ozone layer. The fact is that ten times more Co2 is released into the atmosphere in a volcanic eruption than all the Co2 produced by mankind all over the world in an entire decade. And there have been volcanoes erupting since time began.

    Scientists exist and operate on funding. Without a "Crises" to study they lose money. It is a business like any other. So every few years you hear of some new disaster waiting to happen. Give us more money to study this. Then when that fad crises dies away, then there is a new one.

    I like your passion Strat, but temper that with a little skepticism. It is a much more rational approach.
  8. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

    I often listen to the espousing of "end of the world" climate change and just wonder how man can think he can actually understand how the climate works and all the various mechanisms that play on climate. Yes, we are in a stage of warming but there was rapid warming in the past and no one can explain the whys and hows of that change. It can only be explained through millions and billions of years of sublte change.

    As I look out my snowy window and see snow falling that was not forecasted for today....from yesterday's forecast, how in the heck am I supposed to believe that we can get next week let alone the next century correct?

    If trees give off more CO2 and green house gasses as a result of decomposition versus praries of grass, the reasonable thing to do..from an environmental standpoint (if you believe we have to do what is best for the environment to minimize global warming/cooling)...then we should mow down all the forests and plant fields. Its the only logical thing to do.

    I would be far more concerned about all the various chemicals/pesticides and GMO vegetables than I ever am afraid of global climate change. With these actions we are directly tampering with the inner core and nature of animals/plants in a way that we have no idea what the repurcussions will be.
  9. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    Modern Theories of Global Warming
    tacmotusn likes this.
  10. ripsnort

    ripsnort Monkey+++

    We recognized the danger of acid rain and cut emmissions enough so that forests are not turning brown and dying. We recognized the roll of CFCs in creating the ozone hole and banned them.
    Carbon emissions are very different. Carbon stays in the atmosphere for over 100 years! Right now we are just starting to see the consequences of the carbon released decades ago. We are in deep.
    Want conclusive proof? Is there conclusive proof of anything?
    Can anyone prove that the sun will shine tommorrow - or ever again.
    The evidence of the last couple years is so overwhelming that denial is getting difficult.
  11. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    So....... we narrowly averted global disaster from acid rain due to our agressive legislation? Or was it seriously overstated to begin with.

    Don't take me wrong here, I'm on y'alls side as far as I want to see the planet cleaned up too, but these scientists that are feeding you guys this doom crap are doing so because they are paid to do so. Their only purpose in life is to panic as many people as possible so they'll get richer.

    Prior to the last "mini ice age" we had around the 1300AD or so, we had many decades of "global warming". It's what allowed populations to increase to the levels they did before the crash in the 1300's. What caused the global warming at that point? Cow flatulence maybe?
  12. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    we just need to tie up all this`"extra" carbon that was stored underground in the form of coal, oil,and gas by growing stuff instead of mowing the rainforest down for cheap mahogony.and beef( but man I actually Like bigmacs)
  13. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I personaly figure it is a natural cycle that we are seeing and trying to figure out a reasonf or with tolittle data to even know whats going on, like the blind man who feels an elephants leg and figures it must be like a tree. If CO was the cause and our cars were killing the enviroment, then it seems to me that it would have been destroyed centuries ago when every houshold burned coal and or wood to heat the house and cook and forest fires and prairie fires were a common thing and not controled at all. As far as the methane from things rotting, things have rottedsince the begining of time. Better yet the newer favorite cause of green house gases for some of the green groups is that its from the methane produced from cow farts and we are destroying the world by raising cattle, well before we started doing the cattle the plains were covered by their cousins the buffallo and they werent supposed to have harmed the atmosphere.

    Dont get me wrong, Im definatly big on not dumping chemicals into the enviroment. About the only thing I use on my farm is some mirical grow in the garden once in a while and a couple times in 5 years have used a little weed killer in a fence, other than that go all with organinc. I just have seen to much of the stuff from the scientific comunity that dosent add up and often is even directly contradictary, like the way it goes back and forth between that its global warming or we are headed into an ice age.
  14. andrew414

    andrew414 Howdy.

    Stand by for a terrifying message from Al Gore. Funny regardless of whether the truth is inconvenient or not.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 12, 2015
  15. Stratovarius

    Stratovarius Monkey+++

    I love how people on a survivalism forum are actually not going to worry about global climate change. How...counterintuitive.

    The debating was done in the 90s. The debate is over. Sorry. But you're right, let's just forget these scientists feeding us this doom crap and go back to driving our SUVs. Let's prepare for the best instead of for the worst! Perfect.


    You insult me. I am a product of the school system? What the **** are you talking about? NEVER and I mean ****ing NEVER has any teacher indepthly started discussing climate change or any other "doom" situation. I can't remember a time when it has, even to just to mention it for 2 seconds then move on. I must be losing my mind. Excuse me. :/

    You must know nothing about me. You have no idea how much I hate the public school system. Biggest waste of tax-payers' money ever. Conform. Consume. Obey. is the motto there. Hell, the government doesn't want free thinkers and reformers...that's a threat to what they want. Obedient ****ing bee workers who are just smart enough to do their ****ty jobs and just dumb enough to not know they're getting ****ed over.

    Anyway, enough of that, back to global climate change.

    You know I looked up my "facts". Yes, I actually looked up my facts, and you wrote your post as if you thought I wouldn't. Think before you hit "enter" on your keyboard. It took me less than 10 minutes on wikipedia to find out you were pulling figures out of your ass. Here we go!

    LOL. According to wikipedia a typical volcano emits about 145 million to 255 million short tons of CO2 each year. A short ton is about .907 x 1 metric ton bt the way. A metric ton is 1000 kilograms. A volcano also emits other nastier things like sulfur dioxide which I believe has up to 10x more greenhouse capability than carbon dioxide.

    Oh! and we're talking about CO2 (carbon dioxide) not two atoms of cobalt (Co2).

    Guess how much we (humans, as in human activity) produce each year?

    (resized image a bit, it's from wikipedia)

    We're almost emitting 7 billion metric tons of CO2 per year. Maybe during 1990-2000 we emitted around 60 billion metric tons of CO2.

    about one half of the United States land area was forest, about 400 million hectares (1 billion acres) in 1600. For the next 300 years land was cleared, mostly for agriculture at a rate that matched the rate of population growth. For every person added to the population, one to two hectares of land was cultivated. This trend continued until the 1920s when the amount of crop land stablized in spite of continued population growth. As abandoned farm land reverted to forest the amount of forest land increased from 1952 reaching a peak in 1963 of 308 million ha (762 million acres). Since 1963 there has been a steady decrease of forest area with the exception of some gains from 1997

    Also, that's just the United States. One country, one land fractional landmass. What about the world? Ever looked at the Amazon lately? I guess you haven't. You can look up other figures for yourself. And I mean real figures, not ones you just ****ing pulled out your ass.

    I'm not too worried about forest fires actually, they are a natural cycle in the ecosystem. They do make land more fertile once it's done clearing some trees out. And yes, we can control them so that the fire doesn't engulf half the country. Good thing.


    Did you know phytoplankton is a major source of oxygen for the Earth? Heh, we keep burning those fossil fules and the world's oceans will be too acidic for anymore phytoplankton. :)

    Deforestation? **** it. We'll just pull more oxygen out our asses kinda like how you pulled figures out your ass.

    Again, the debating was done in the 90s. The debate is over. But whatever, you're right, George Carlin is right, "The Earth is fine...The people are ****ed." Yes, the Earth will just shake us off sooner or 5 years or the next 1 million. The Earth will go on living happily and riding out all kinds of ****, possibly until the sun uses up all it's hydrogen and starts burning helium and expands until the Earth is engulfed.

    And I agree, environmentalists are full of ****. "Hey, let's reduce the carbon emissions on this car by 0.001%! The world is saved!"

    Also, I doubted global climate change before I embraced that we are going to heat up (possibly cool down) sooner or later.
  16. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    Ok, first off, the reason we're not too worried about it is that we've learned over the years to seperate fact from hyperbole. If we didn't we'd be running around panicked 24/7 because somebody is always telling us the world is ending.

    We also tend to pick our battles, I'm sure everyone on this board wants to see a cleaner environment, but there is only so much we can do, and if you can't fix it.... just prepare for it the best you can.

    The debate on GW is far from over Strat. Take a breath, everythings fine for now.
  17. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    Dang I musted have missed the all ending debate [dunno] was it on CNN?
  18. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    Hmmmm, OK.

    Well where to start. First I had no intention of insulting you. I assumed you were a product of the PS system, and you say that indeed you are. Nothing wrong with that. I was merely commenting on the experience I, and my children had from that. And how it is lagging behind the current advances in science. Look at the date that your text books were printed.

    As for the "Facts" that you cite, and so adamantly purport as the "Final" word. I can cite just as many "Facts" supporting just the opposite.

    And that is the crux of the problem isn't it?

    The intent of my post; There is no consensus. The debate is NOT over. Not by any means. There are as many credible scientists who debunk global warming as there are who support it.

    The problem is that issues like this one are put forth in such a way as to stir up the emotions of people. Being passionate about a topic, and being emotional about it are two very different things.

    To decide an issue or take a stance on something based on an emotional response is an immature and not a very productive way to form ones beliefs.

    But, you "Claim" to be a 16 year old high school student, so I will take you at your word. And once again say that I like your passion. And I would never want to quench it in any way. But the facts, my young friend, are that this issue is not decided, this debate is not over, and no amount of emotion can, nor ever will change that fact.

    Now as to the statistics I quoted. I admit that I am stating them from memory. And may be off on the exact figures. But the underlying point remains valid.

    I am at work right now and out of town, so I do not have access to my library. But I will be returning soon, and I will be glad to look up those figures and statistics and give you a chapter and verse reference as to where I read that and where you can find it for yourself.

    Keep searching out your answers, that is the mature thing to do. But don't go searching for only that which fits your particular world view.
    Look for as much counter evidence as you do evidence. Only then can you truly form an unbiased, rational opinion. Seeing both sides of an issue is the best way to see it clearly. Take care and this may date me but.... Chill out dude!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  19. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I am looking for a bigger gas guzzling SUV, anyone have one for sale? [touchdown]
  20. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    ok, after all that, long johns or shorts?
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