Discussion in 'Freedom and Liberty' started by Mountainman, May 7, 2013.
What's up with this BS???
DHS On The Hunt For Millions Of Rounds Of Frangible Ammunition
Hmmmmm - the ammo that only is used for one purpose - for breaching work. Are we the only people who see this crap ? Everybody I speak to that isn't on the boards or has a similar mind set don't understand when I speak of it
MM - I think me and the missus are going to pack it up and head to Idaho
Ought to make for some interesting wounds. Isn't that why dum-dums were outlawed?
Ok, they can haz the frangible, I wants the HEI.
I thought frangible ammo was for shooting close to steel targets. No?
Yes, they are, but I was thinking that would be a small percentage of there use. I was thinking more along the lines of Glaser Safety Slugs to limit over penetration on soft targets (humans) during structure raids to reduce the chance of a fellow jackboot on the other side of the wall getting hit.
Who is going to do these raids? College kids working for FEMA during the summer?
The type they are looking to buy is essentially compressed powdered copper for use at training ranges. Its about useless as a combat round.
It is part of the administrations green initiative. Lead free, recyclable, etc.
Additionally there are shoot house facilities and ranges that require frangible.
A lot of dhs components depending on the location do not have their own range and have to use local police and commercial ranges and shoot houses.
Come on guys, the folks you need to worry about are not DHS component agencies, unless you think the Coast Guard or CBP is coming to kick down your door. DHS itself has only a small handful of guns. The guys that need the ammo are the same guys that needed the ammo before DHS was created and took over as the managing department. Secret service, USCG, customs and boarder protection, etc.
You could get rid of DHS tomorrow and the agencies would still need the ammo.
HSFLGL-RFI-00056 Notice Type:
Sources Sought Synopsis:
Added: May 01, 2013 1:11 pm
REQUEST FOR INFORMATION: HSFLGL-RFI-00056
NAICS: 332992 REDUCED HAZARD TRAINING AMMUNITION (RHTA)
NOTE: AMMUNITION IS FOR TRAINING PURPOSES ONLY
The purpose of this sources sought notice is to determine how the Government requirements can be met. The Department of Homeland Security (DHS), Federal Law Enforcement Training Centers (FLETC), Glynco, Georgia is anticipating a purchase of Reduced Hazard Training Ammunition (RHTA) for multiple caliber types for use in the training programs for the FLETC sites. This applies to frangible and non-frangible projectiles and must meet the requirements stated below.
THIS IS A MARKET SURVEY REQUESTING INFORMATION IN SUPPORT OF THE FOLLOWING PERFORMANCE REQUIREMENT. No contract will be awarded from this announcement. This is not a Request for Proposal (RFP) or an Invitation for Bid (IFB), nor is it to be construed as a commitment by the government. Response to this questionnaire is purely voluntary and no reimbursement will be made for any costs associated with providing information in response to this market survey or any follow-on information requests. Data submitted in response to this market survey will not be returned. No solicitation document exists at this time and calls requesting a solicitation will not be answered.
General: FLETC has a requirement for RHTA training ammunition of multiple calibers strictly for law enforcement officer (LEO) training purposes at multiple training sites in the United States. Types of RHTA needed are:
CALIBER TYPE; Acceptable Bullet Weight Range
9MM Reduced Hazard, Frangible; 90 -105
10MM Reduced Hazard, Frangible; 100-135
.357 SIG Caliber Reduced Hazard, Frangible; 100-115
.38 SPL Caliber Reduced Hazard, Frangible; 110-
.380 Auto Caliber Reduced Hazard, Frangible; 70-75
.40 S&W Caliber Reduced Hazard, Frangible; 100-135
.45 Auto Caliber Reduced Hazard, Frangible; 155-
.223 REM aliber Reduced Hazard, Frangible; 50-55
.308 WIN Caliber Jacketed, Reduced Hazard; 165-168
12 Gauge Steel Shot Target Load, Reduced Hazard; #7
12 Gauge #00 Buckshot Full Recoil, Reduced Hazard, Frangible; 8 PELLET
12 Gauge #00 Buckshot Reduced Recoil, Reduced Hazard, Frangible; 8 PELLET
12 Gauge #00 Buckshot Full Recoil, Reduced Hazard, Frangible; 9 PELLET
12 Gauge #00 Buckshot Reduced Recoil, Reduced Hazard, Frangible; 9 PELLET
12 Gauge Rifled Slug Full Recoil, Reduced Hazard, Frangible; 1 OZ
12 Gauge Rifled Slug Reduced Recoil, Reduced Hazard, Frangible; 1 OZ
12 Gauge #4 Buckshot Full Recoil, Reduced Hazard, Frangible; 27 PELLET
12 GAUGE #4 Buckshot Reduced Recoil, Reduced Hazard; 27 PELLET
1.1 Environmental Health and Safety
RHTA shall utilize components that minimize the hazards to personnel and the environment. The ammunition and all of the component parts shall be free of lead styphnate and other toxic materials listed on the 2010 CERCLA Priority List of Hazardous Substances. In addition, any and all ammunition components shall not cause the Action Levels (AL) or the Permissible Exposure Limits (PEL) as established by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA 29 CFR 1910.1000) to be exceeded in a training environment. Either of these conditions shall be cause for disqualification and/or rejection at the discretion of the FLETC. All RHTA and component parts shall be designed to minimize the generation of hazardous waste. All RHTA proposed for delivery must have the Material Safety Data Sheet(s) for all components pre-approved by the FLETC prior to shipment and delivery. Reloaded ammunition is unacceptable. Ammunition offered must perform in all brands of law enforcement weapons without requiring alterations or damaging such weapons.
If the contract line item requires a frangible projectile, the round shall be designed for use with steel or other targets at a close distance where ricochet creates an unacceptable hazard. Offerors must provide frangible test data. The submission must be actual data, not projected results. Frangible projectiles must break up upon target impact, as follows:
1.2.1 Handgun - when fired against a vertical 3/8"x24"x24" armor steel plate (AR400 Brinnel or harder) at a 45 degree angle of impact, from a distance of 10 feet, shall fragment after a single impact, with the largest resulting fragment not exceeding 5 grains in weight and no 5 grain particle shall penetrate a 200 weight cardboard witness panel located 10 feet from initial impact. Only handgun ammunition producing fragments no larger than 5 grains will be considered as qualified for delivery to the DHS/FLETC.
1.2.2 Rifle/Shotgun - shot ammunition when fired against a vertical 3/8"x24"x24" armor steel plate (AR 400 Brinnel or harder) at a 45 degree angle of impact, from a distance of 21 feet, shall fragment after a single impact, with the largest resulting fragment not exceeding 5 grains in weight and no 5 grain particle (or larger) shall penetrate a 200 weight cardboard witness panel located 21 feet from initial impact. Only rifle/shotgun ammunition producing fragments no larger than 5 grains will be considered as qualified for delivery to the DHS/FLETC.
1.2.3 If a contract line item does not specifically state 'frangible', it shall be deemed as not requiring these frangibility mandates.
RHTA handgun and rifle projectiles should yield accuracy characteristics not to exceed 6" in diameter, and the mean center of the group shall not exceed an average of 3" from the mean center of the group fired with conventional (duty-type) ammunition. Handgun ammunition will be fired from a machine rest at 25 yards. Rifle ammunition will be manually fired from a sandbag rest at 50 yards.
2.0 Functioning and Ammunition Defects
2.1 DHS/FLETC provides training for more than 80 agencies; numerous manufacturers' weapons are used during firearms training (some are FLETC-owned and some other-agency owned). Any RHTA delivered under this contract must function in a satisfactory manner in any law enforcement weapon, regardless of the weapon manufacturer.
2.2 Functioning is defined as feeding, chambering, locking, firing, unlocking, extracting, ejecting and cocking. No more than one ammunition-related failure per 1,000 round sample of RHTA will be considered acceptable for the duration of the contract. Ammunition-related failures shall not include failures that are shooter induced, caused by an improperly maintained weapon, or caused by a weapon defect.
2.3 Ammunition-specific defects include, but are not limited to: deformed case, inverted primer or bullet, inert or defective primer, squib load, inconsistent bullet seating depth, inconsistent powder charge, excessive residue build up in the weapon, excessive primer or bullet sealant, case not within recommended specifications of the SAAMI, blown primer (excluding those caused by something other than ammunition). Ammunition shall not result in visible damage to FLETC-owned or Agency-owned firearms through normal law enforcement training. Contractor shall be responsible for all costs associated with the replacement of damaged firearms and/or parts.
2.4 Bullet Integrity
RHTA projectiles must remain intact until impact with hard barriers. Projectiles shall not fragment in the bore, while in flight, or when striking paper targets with cardboard backs. The projectile (except shotshells using birdshot or buckshot) must stabilize in flight at all distances out to: 25 yards for handguns, 50 yards for shotgun slug rounds , and 100 yards for rifle rounds, so that a single round hole is created in the target medium, specifically paper targets and cardboard backing.
2.5 Lot Formation/Primer Lots
Primer sensitivity data must be on file for each lot of primers produced. Alternate lot testing or any discontinuous testing of primer lots is not allowed. MSDS for the specific primer mix for match must be provided. Each lot shall be assigned a lot number in accordance with an established lot numbering system; only one type and weight of propellant shall be used in a lot. Each cartridge lot shall contain no more than two lots of primers and one lot of propellant. A primer lot shall consist of a specific product, made on consecutive work shifts, with no break in the production of that specific product.
2.6 Shelf Life
RHTA shall have a manufacturer's warranted shelf life of a minimum of two years from the date of shipment when stored dry in the manufacturer's packaging. Exterior of cases shall indicate a "USE BY (month & year)" date that will be 3 months prior to the expiration of the shelf life.
3.0 APPLICABLE DOCUMENTS
3.1 General. This specification lists performance requirements for the acquisition of reduced-hazard training ammunition (RHTA).
3.2 Non-Government publications.
ANSI/SAAMI Z299.3-1993: Voluntary Industry Performance Standards for Pressure & Velocity of Center Fire Pistol & Revolver Ammunition for the use of Commercial Manufacturers - Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer's Institute (SAAMI),P.O. Box 262, Frankfort, NY 13340
ISO 9001:2000, Quality Management Systems Requirements - International Organization for Standardization, 1, rue de Varembe, Case postale 56, CH-1211 Geneva 20, Switzerland
4.0 RHTA REQUIREMENTS
4.1 Packaging and Marking
DHS/FLETC requires that all RHTA be packaged in 200, 250, 500 or 1000 round cases, in plastic trays of 50 or 100 rounds per box as approved by the DHS/FLETC for the particular round. Exterior product shipping case and individual boxes shall be clearly marked with manufacturer's name, caliber/style & grain, and lot number.
4.2.1 Cartridge Marking
Cartridge shall be head stamped with the manufacturer's symbol and cartridge designation, as well as distinct and easy to read designation that the round is reduced hazard in nature.
4.2.2 Cartridge Material
RHTA shall be constructed of new, unfired components. The ammunition supplier will disclose, in writing, the manufacturer of any component not produced by the supplier and provide the DHS/FLETC an MSDS and any applicable test data required for the particular component.
4.3 Quality System
The manufacturer must have a quality system that is commensurate with ISO 9001: 2000, Quality Management Systems Requirements.
Metallic components and the completed cartridges shall be manufactured using established industry standards; unacceptable workmanship includes (but is not necessarily limited to) folds, wrinkles, deep draw scratches, scaly metal, dents, burrs, deformed case, improperly seated primer, inert primer, hard primer, inconsistent bullet seating, sheared/broken projectiles and other defects. All components and the completed cartridge shall be free of foreign material including (but not necessarily limited to), corrosion, dirt, oil, grease, smears of lacquer and metal chips. Ammunition rejected due to failures under this paragraph will be replaced or a refund of the cost paid will be made to the DHS/FLETC (or other ordering entity).
5.0 PACKING, PACKAGING & DEFINITIONS
All material shall be packed for shipment in such a manner that will insure acceptance by common carrier and safe delivery at destination. Shipping containers shall comply with the Interstate Commerce Commission Regulations, Uniform Freight Classification Rules, or regulations of other carriers as applicable to the mode of transportation.
Packaging of all ammunition shipments shall be in accordance with all Federal regulations (non-military) regarding explosive materials. For all palletized ammunition, shipments shall be safely positioned on shipping pallets and shall be stretch wrapped and/or banded to insure that contents are secure during movement of the pallet. Ammunition may be palletized in accordance with the best commercial practices; however, the cases must be placed on the pallets in a manner that will facilitate counting of cases at destination. The number of cases per pallet layer must be marked clearly on at least 2 exterior sides of each pallet. Pallets containing ammunition that is stacked haphazardly or in uncountable layers may be rejected and returned to the vendor.
For purposes of this contract, a box is defined as the smallest unit of packaging and a case is defined as the unit of packaging that contains the boxes.
6.1. Case Markings:
Each case shall be marked in accordance with Federal Standard 123 (Marking for Domestic Shipment) on the outside surface with the nomenclature, quantity, lot number, and manufacturer's part or item number. Each case shall also be marked with a "USE BY (Month &Year)" date. The contract number and delivery order number shall also be marked on the outside surface of each exterior shipping container.
6.2. Lot Number:
Within 10 days after award, the contractor shall provide the Contracting Officer (CO) a notice explaining the contractor's intended lot numbering system. No change to the lot numbering system shall be allowed without prior notification being provided to the CO. The manufacturer must print, emboss or label the words "LOT NO." followed by the manufacturer's lot number on either the inside or outside surface of each box. The marking must be easily identified. The words "LOT NO." followed by the manufacturer's lot number must be clearly marked on the outside surface of each case.
6.3. Pallet Marking:
For all palletized ammunition, a unique, visual 8 ½ " x 11" sign identifying the ammunition as reduced hazard shall be positioned on each pallet's vertical exterior side. A simple sign is sufficient, but it must be readily identifiable by a color contrasting with the color of the shipping container.
6.4. Special Markings:
Special markings, if any, shall be as otherwise stated within this contract or as stated on Delivery Orders issued under this contract, all within the scope of the applicable provisions of Federal Standard 123.
7.0 PACKING LIST
A packing list or other suitable document shall accompany each shipment and shall show (a) name and address of vendor, (b) name and address of consignee, (c) Government contract and delivery order number, (d) Government bill of lading number covering shipment, if any, and (e) description of material shipped, including nomenclature, lot number(s), quantity (per lot), number of containers, and package number (if any).
INSTRUCTIONS FOR COMPLETING THE QUESTIONNAIRE:
1. Number each response with the appropriate question number. You do not have to repeat the question in your response;
2. If you cannot answer a question, please indicate "No Response."
3. If a response will satisfy another question, state: "See response to question XXX."
4. Include relevant sales and product manuals. If providing an ACROBAT formatted manual, annotate the manual to indicate which material is applicable to the questions.
5. If your sales media and/or manuals contain a restricted distribution statement, issue a release statement indicating that the restricted material may be distributed to FLETC personnel involved with this Market Survey.
6. Spell out any acronyms in their first instance.
1. Company Name:
2. DUNS Number:
3. Mailing Address:
4. Point of Contact Information to include: name, title, telephone number, and email address.
5. How long have you been in business?
6. Are you a large or small business for North American Industry Classification System (NAICS)?
7. If small business, are you:
Small Disadvantaged - or - 8(a)
In a Hubzone
8. If large business, are you capable of partnering with small business for this requirement?
9. Are you a manufacturer?
10. Does your company currently produce and/or sell any of the training calibers listed above? If yes, provide a list of your Government customers to include agency name and a point of contact with phone number or email address.
11. Describe your production facilities and capabilities.
12. Describe your quality assurance program.
13. What is your experience in working with your customers to identify and correct potential quality issues?
14. Are you capable of producing any of the training calibers listed above to meet the stated performance requirements?
15. Are you capable of producing large quantity orders of any training caliber specified with a short turnaround time of 30-60 days?
16. What would your lead time be for an order of 2 million rounds of a single type listed above?
17. If you were awarded a contract for some of the calibers listed above, submitted a production lot of one million rounds and that lot or portion of the lot was not accepted, would you be able to replace that order with an additional one million rounds within 60 days?
18. Do you have the resources and mechanisms required to endure the recalling or rejection of production lots of ammunition: What is your plan for mitigating this risk?
19. Provide information to include material safety data sheets and retail price lists for all caliber types and components of training ammunition.
20. Where would production take place?
Responses to this market survey questionnaire should be sent via email to firstname.lastname@example.org with subject line reading: Response to Market Survey for RHTA Training Ammunition; HSFLGL-RFI-00056.
Any product literature that cannot be emailed may be sent to:
Department of Homeland Security
Federal Law Enforcement Training Center
Procurement Division, Building 93
Attention: Ammo Buyer
1131 Chapel Crossing Road
Glynco, Georgia 31524
Please annotate front of package with - Response to Market Survey for RHTA Training Ammunition; HSFLGL-RFI-00056.
Responses are due not later than 3:00PM (EST), Thursday May 23, 2013.
Contracting Office Address:
PRO Bldg 93
1131 Chapel Crossing Road
Glynco, Georgia 31524
Yep, have you seen what frangible ammo does to say a raccoon gut shot? DRT or Dead Right There.
and yes, they will be using them for training in 'Kill House' (great name huh?) exercises. I say, let them use ball ammo.
yep, maybe tinfoil but don't they already have enough hollow point training ammo at this time?
Oh and why does the Social Security Administration need guns? The gonna raid granny and her wheelchair brigade of rebels?
EDIT: I still want HEI
DHS finally found out how deadly the DRT ammo is, so now they want some. DRT will drop a 4oo lb hog with a 55 grain 5.56. The DRT stays together for the first 2 inshes and then it explodes in the target. This is not your target ammo as the feds suggest.
Video | Dynamic Research Technologies
I vaguely recall a U.S. soldier in Iraq sneaking in some frangible ammo a few years ago, perhaps the DRT or Barnes Varmint Grenade stuff when the technology first came out, when he was mobilized to that theatre.
After killing at least one jihadist with the stuff, and upon subsequent body count and wound inspection, he was sternly reprimanded and relieved of his "civvy" ammo under the ruling that it was not in compliance with international military ammunition accords because of the inhumane wounding, hence heightened killing capability (ie use only the approved non-opening FMJ, or more recently OTM ammo).
This non-war approved frangible ammo is the stuff that DHS wants to have available to use on whomever for whatever, when they also have hollow point ammo, also non-war approved, in large stockpiles already...
one thing about frangible. It dumps all it's energy in a very short distance.
it's a wound cavity that can not be repaired.
basically it's an internal explosion in soft tissue.
works great on vermin.
Are we vermin?
To some people we are!
sounds like a good reason to invest in plate carriers with plates.
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. As posted above, you may be right, but I would rather be prepared for the worst scenario (might be a tin foil hat item) then to be a deer in the headlights if it happens.
Isn't that why it blows door hinges off so well ? My Sac County SWAT pals swear by it - A breacher's best friend as they call it
Breaching round - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I like to shoot 55gr frangible sinterfire bullets .224 dia over 27 some grains of 4064. Shoots just as good as FMJ at 100 yards (I haven't tried anything longer) and are pretty neat at close ranges.
1/4" mild steel plate is dented pretty good by the rounds, definetly not anything to make jokes about. I started to buy the Sinterfire bullets because they were available a few years ago when the fmj were hard to find the first go around.
The copper/tin material weighs less than lead, so the bullet is a little longer, and has a wider oglive topped with a cone instead of the normal profile that we are used to seeing with a 55gr FMJ bullet.
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