Diameter of exit hole means nothing.

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by meyah, Feb 18, 2006.

  1. meyah

    meyah Monkey+++

    When hunting, having an exit wound is helpful, because it leads to having a blood trail, which makes it easier to find an animal that has run off after being hit.

    With men, however, it's the bleeding and tissue damage and possibly nerve-damage done internally that decides whether or not the man is incapacitated, not how much blood leaks out of the exit wound.

    Fackler and others are full of it, when they claim that shock isn't a factor with bullet wounds., and I can prove it, in a variety of ways. For instance, take a 70 lb, attack-trained Rottweiller and smash his testicles in your hand, like you can a man's testicles. See if he just drops to the ground, like men do (99+% of the time). No penetration at all. No blood loss at all, no vital organs damaged, yet you will be lying on the ground in a second or less. Wonder why that is so, since shock "doesn't exist"?

    Each 00 buck pellet hits about like a rd of 380 ball ammo, and the buck pellet is smaller in diameter. So WHY can't 2 guys, each firing 5 shots per second into a man's chest with 380's, expect the same effect (after 1 second of shooting) that a blast of 00 buckshot has? Since shock doesn't exist, since the 380's are doing more damage to tissues, and causing more blood loss, why do lots more guys stand up to a burst of 380 ball ammo (say, from a Mac 11) than can do so to a 00 blast? Yes, a few have not been downed by the 00 blast, but they are 1 in 100 flukes.

    Shoot some coyotes or feral dogs with 223 softpoints, and others with .45 fmj ammo, and i guarantee you that you will be unimpressed with .45 "ball" ammo performance, while the 223 softpoints will be uniformly impressive. This is true in spite of the fact that the 223 bullet has the same momentum as the .45 bullet, and the .45 bullet has 4x the "frontal impact area" of the 223 bullet. If energy transfer and shock don't matter, why does the .45 do so poorly on flesh and blood?

    Every year in the USA, nearly 1 million people suffer dogbites, and at least as many more avoid such a bite by luck alone. So performance of defensive ammo on canines is a valuable thing, in and of itself. If .45 ball really is so wonderful on men (it's not) why does it do so poorly on dogs? The fact is, .45 ball ammo does poorly on men, too. It's just had millions of lies told about it, that's all.

    The fact is, that out at 100 yds, where the 223 softpoint still knocks a big feral dog on his butt with a chest hit, the bullet's velocity is down to 2200-2400 fps, (depending upon the bullet wt and the load). The belt pistol can be loaded to get such velocities, with similar bullet weights, and with bullets having 2.5-4x the frontal area of the 223 bullet.

    Check out the websites for Clark Custom Guns, DoubleTap ammo, and Casull Firearms.
    Note that the .38 Casull and 9x25 Dillion get 90 gr bullets to 2000 fps in 6" barrels, which means at least 1900 fps in 5" barrels. If the bullet wt is decreased to 60 grs, the velocity will increase by 400 fps or so, too. Do a search for info about RBCD ammo and THV =Arcane ammo. 2200+ fps velocities were demonstrated over 20 years ago, from the 9x19 Luger and the .45 ACP. Given the much stronger cases of the .38 Casull, 10mm, 9x25 Dillon, and the .460 Rowland, along with fully supported barrels, those loads can be safetly loaded to much higher pressures than is true of the .45 ACP and the 9x19 Luger-Parabellum.

    So when guys claim that "pistols can't achieve rifle performance", they are just ignorant. Also, remember that shorter rifle barrels get less velocity than longer barrels. Air offers resistance to a flying bullet, so the bullets slow down as they fly. A 308, 150 gr softpoint, which starts at 2600 fps in an 18" barreled rifle is down to 1800 fps at 300 yds or so. So, if you claim that a rifle bullet "must have" 2500+ fps, then the .308 Scout is not a rifle beyond about 50 yds. It's not a rifle at all if you load it with 180 gr bullets, because such heavy bullets don't crack 2500 fps in that short barrel, with factory ammo.

    The 170 gr 30030 starts at 2200 fps at the muzzle. Are you going to claim that a 30-30 is not a rifle? Try to think in terms of principles, ok? men and animals don't care what you shoot them with. Flesh and blood is flesh and blood, and it responds to the same sort of physical laws as anything else on this Earth. If a handgun bullet matches the rifle bullet's wt and speed, it's going to be every bit as shocking and destructive as the rifle bullet. So spare us the bs claims that the "pistol rd is different", ok? Cause it's not so, given the velocity and bullet wt being the same. We CAN readily achieve 30-30 rifle bullet velocity in belt handguns. Also, out where the deer is hit with the 30-30 softpoint, the speed of the bullet is down to 2000 fps or less.

    Jim Cirillo was quite impressed with the effects of a special 100 gr hollowpoint for the .30 Crrbine, when armed robbers were shot with it by his NYPD Stakeout Unit, in the 60's. He wasn't impressed at all with handgun hp's, but there weren't many of such types of hangun bullets back then , either. Jim and his crew confronted 280 of NYC's worst punks, in Harlem, 1968. ONly about 40 made the cops shoot them.

    Jim personally shot down 13 men, double teamed another 6 with his partner, watched his partner shoot down another 5. He heard first hand about the other 20 odd shootings, too, of course. Jim had a failure to stop of the 12ga, using 00 buck, with two centered hits to the chest (front and then back) at 10 and 15 ft of range. The sort of guys who forced cops to kill them were typcially full of heroin, and often thought that the cops had missed them with bullets that passed right thru their chests.
  2. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Idealy in a defensive situation there would be no exit wound since if there is an exit wound that means that the projectile still had energy that was not transfered into the target and thus did not inflict as much shock as it could have. Ball ammo is nearly always inferior to SP or HP (exception being when penetration is needed such as killing large animals with a .22 and head shots, the HPs wont penetrate reliably). The best senario is to have a round that will enter then expan and or fragment to a degree such that it stops just short of exeting and so delivers its full energy to the target. [beer]
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