the 17 Remington softpoint, 25 grs at 3600 fps, (out where coyotes are hit, 150 yds or so) nails said coyotes to the ground, while the 5x larger "frontal area" , same momentum 380 (90 grs at 1000 fps ,at 5 yds) won't reliably stop a coon or a chuck? According to the "Hatcher formula" , the 380 should do much better than the 17. The 380 JHP has a flat point, even if it doesn't expand (which is usually, on critters) The 17 sp is pointed, w hich, according to Hatcher, should make it less effective. Jeff Cooper said that at "Mach II velocities, hydrostatic shock" becomes much more of the decisive factor. Well, then, why did he deride the M4 as a mere "poodle shooter"? With 55 gr boatailed softpoints, the M4 still has 2200 fps left at over 200m. A guy who's hit in the torso with a "mere" 1800 fps softpoint 223 (at 300m+) is not going to be any direct threat to you any more, either. We aint in the military, neither was 99% of Jeff's readership, so we aint stuck with FMJ bullets, and Jeff certainly never stated that his contempt for the shorty 223 was limited only to "ball" ammo.