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EMP "problems"

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by overbore, Mar 25, 2008.

  1. overbore

    overbore Monkey++

    Although I am new to the forum and have not found my Avitar yet, I am on the 1919 Forums and others since 04 and have been involved in shooting and professional flying for over 40 years including "experience" in the 307th Bomb Wing and 5th BW meaning I have been taught nuke weapon effects--. With that as brief background, my opinion is that China and Iran would use an EMP weapon in space against us as a first strike before they would nuke a city. --Just my opinion--. It would cripple our economy and bring chaos as a "Negotiating" tool--If that happens, visualize your computer controlled vehicles, including modern diesels, sitting there to get you out of Dodge. No way, Jose--. How would you make withdrawls from your ATM, cash a check or even buy groceries? The computer registers would be fried as would be your fuel station operations--. I have two old diesels fueled and ready to go--. Look at Buck Stop "tank pusher" bumpers for your 4X4---Just to promote your thinking--. I learned in the aviation game that if you are prepared for the unexpected, when "stuff" happens. you will have enough of a plan to use some of the existing components to make a new viable plan, but, with no plan for contingencies, you are going to be a statistic / victim. For example, when the lights go out, I have lived for 12 days on our natural gas powered whole house generator - house hit by tornado in 98----and if the natural gas goes off, we have have the large propane tank plumbed in and full. Cooking crane for the fireplace? Pots with lids and hooks? Welding spark ignitors make dandy fire starters with replaceable flints in easy supply. Lint from the dryer--. Any help with the aviator will be appreciated. Cordially, Overbore
  2. franks71vw

    franks71vw Monkey+++

    Overbore well I guess we are everywhere eh....:D[beer]
  3. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    I'd say you are well along with preps in the event of and EMP event. We have touched on this before around here, so for what it's worth here are a couple threads that touch on the effects and what to do about it. There are other rubbings here and there, if you are up for a search.


    I have my doubts that Iran can mount a missile attack of any consequence in the near future, but China is a different story.


    So far as an avatar for you goes, pick one, you can always change it --
  4. overbore

    overbore Monkey++

    Sometimes I have flair for the obvious--- where is the Pea Picking aviatar selection? Thanks, OB
  5. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    Go to your CP, go down the left column and I think you'll find the way. Edit also adds.
  6. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    320th bmw here; sir, (mms) and 97th (ams)...Nice to hear from you here...
  7. <exile>

    <exile> Padawan Learner

  8. SLugomist

    SLugomist Monkey++

    SO let me get this striaght older diesels can survive an EMP? Anyone know year cut off, makes, models?
  9. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    if it has a computer it wont run.
  10. ColtCarbine

    ColtCarbine Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Yup, whether it's a gas or diesel you're screwed unless you have spare components laying around. I've got one gas burning vehice that would only need minimal replacement parts; ignition coil and a spare HEI or points/condenser distributor.
  11. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Not sure on cut of on desil but on gas its areound 70 or so. If it has electronic ignition, a brain, or computer its screwed if the EMP is of a magnitude to fry it. That said, even a mid or late 70s gas vehicle would have a lot beter chance than a 2000 or some such since the electronics are a lot more stable than the computers in the newer ones. If it has the old brain and electronic ignition then replacments for those parts in a fariday box/cage would have it up and running again.
  12. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    points and carburetors forever!!....Most parts counter jockies have never even heard of a dwell meter!
  13. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    I still have mine. Wanna trade for a 50 cal?
  14. SLugomist

    SLugomist Monkey++

    excellent, that's for the tip I've always wondered about that. For some reason I had a crazy notion that by having the battery un hooked it could survive.

    Hmmm I wonder if I could take metal screen and inlay it in plaster all over my garage hence making the whole thing a faraday cage. Have to figure something out over the door.
  15. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Only helps if its in the garage when hit. May be able to build it in though.
  16. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    Use silicon carbide chips instead of the typical silicon microchips in the electronics and silicon carbide is immune to an EMP pulse.
    Some electrical equipment is innately EMP-resistant. This includes
    large electric motors, vacuum tube equipment, electrical generators, trans-
    formers, relays, and the like. These might even survive a massive surge of EMP
    and would likely to survive if a few of the above precautions were taking in
    their design and deployment.

    At the other end of the scale of EMP resistance are some really sensitive
    electrical parts. These include IC circuits, microwave transistors, and Field
    Effect Transistors (FET's). If you have electrical equipment with such com-
    ponents, it must be very well protected if it is to survive EMP.

    One "survival system" for such sensitive equipment is the Faraday box.

    A Faraday box is simply a metal box designed to divert and soak up the
    EMP. If the object placed in the box is insulated from the inside surface of
    the box, it will not be effected by the EMP traveling around the outside metal
    surface of the box. The Faraday box simple and cheap and often provides more
    protection to electrical components than "hardening" through circuit designs
    which can't be (or haven't been) adequately tested.

    Many containers are suitable for make-shift Faraday boxes: cake boxes,
    ammunition containers, metal filing cabinets, etc., etc., can all be used.
    Despite what you may have read or heard, these boxes do NOT have to be air-
    tight due to the long wave length of EMP; boxes can be made of wire screen or
    other porous metal.

    The only two requirements for protection with a Faraday box are: (1) the
    equipment inside the box does NOT touch the metal container (plastic, wadded
    paper, or cardboard can all be used to insulate it from the metal) and (2) the
    metal shield is continuous without any gaps between pieces or extra-large holes
    in it.

    Grounding a Faraday box is NOT necessary and in some cases actually may be
    less than ideal. While EMP and lightning aren't the "same animal", a good
    example of how lack of grounding is a plus can be seen with some types of
    lightning strikes. Take, for example, a lightning strike on a flying air-
    plane. The strike doesn't fry the plane's occupants because the metal shell of
    the plane is a Faraday box of sorts. Even though the plane, high over the
    earth, isn't grounded it will sustain little damage.

    In this case, much the same is true of small Faraday cages and EMP.
    Consequently, storage of equipment in Faraday boxes on wooden shelves or the
    like does NOT require that everything be grounded. (One note: theoretically
    non-grounded boxes might hold a slight charge of electricity; take some time
    and care before handling ungrounded boxes following a nuclear attack.)

    The thickness of the metal shield around the Faraday box isn't of much
    concern, either. This makes it possible to build protection "on the cheap" by
    simply using the cardboard packing box that equipment comes in along with
    aluminum foil. Just wrap the box with the aluminum foil (other metal foil or
    metal screen will also work); tape the foil in place and you're done. Provided
    it is kept dry, the cardboard will insulate the gear inside it from the foil;
    placing the foil-wrapped box inside a larger cardboard box is also wise to be
    sure the foil isn't accidentally ripped anywhere. The result is an "instant"
    Faraday box with your equipment safely stored inside, ready for use following a
    nuclear war.

    Copper or aluminum foil can help you insulate a whole room from EMP
    as well. Just paper the wall, ceiling and floor with metal foil. Ideally the
    floor is then covered with a false floor of wood or with heavy carpeting to
    insulate everything and everyone inside from the shield (and EMP). The only
    catch to this is that care must be taken NOT to allow electrical wiring
    connections to pierce the foil shield (i.e., no AC powered equipment or radio
    antennas can come into the room from outside). Care must also be taken that
    the door is covered with foil AND electrically connected to the shield with a
    wire and screws or some similar set up.
  17. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    Also think about this:
    Put whatever you want to protect inside of a microwave oven....the big old ones can often be scrounged from a landfill, or bought for $5 at a garage sale. They are designed to prevent microwave radiation from getting OUT, so they would naturally also keep it from getting IN.
  18. ColtCarbine

    ColtCarbine Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Which electrical components do you need to protect or keep spares of on a pre-computer vehicle? Mine has a HEI distributor and carburetor.

    Alternator, voltage regulator, starter, distributor, spark plugs, spark plug wires..... [dunno]

    Gonna have to find an old microwave
  19. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Let me preface this by saying the question isnt as cut and dry as it may seem. I dont claim to know all there is about EMP, but did SOME research on it when was wrighting (and reading) fiction based around a massive EMP. Based on what research I have done this would be my take on it but if anyone who has been trained in EMP use and or protection or knows more on it sees erorrs by all means jump in and correct me.

    I would say that if it has the old brain (the box type module that a lot of times mounted on the firewall not the full computer type) then get a spare brain (if it has the full computer get a spare vehicle to go on the key), if it has electronic ignition get a spare electronic ignition module, spare voltage regulater wouldnt hurt and spare starter cilinoid(? the one you arc across with a screw driver when it goes out). Some of those parts are unlikely to be efected and some others 'could' be affected, basicly anything electrical or electronic 'could' be affected BUT the thing to understand and kep in mind is that EMPs come in all sizes and what will be effected depends on the size, our entire neuro system is also electronic enouph to be effected and kill us from an EMP IF its is strong enouph (of coarse with most sources of EMP if it is large enouph and close enouph for the EMP to be THAT strong you wont have to wory about the EMP anyway since you would be a pudle of goo) and if it was strong enouph to screw with stuff hardier than that on the vehicle then you probably wont need it anyway due to the source cause of the EMPs other effects. It also wouldnt hurt to be sure you had a spare set of fuses. OH and if you want to count the radio and or comms then those would likely be fried too.

    There are smal EMPs created by electric motors comeing on or off, larger from lightneing, much larger from volcanic eruptions and solar flares (solar flares efect us less but more wide spread due to distance), and of coarse nuclear explosions create them. We all know that the EMPs created from the fridge dont fry everything, but if you took SUPER sensitive computer microelectronics and set right next to the motor then that may well get fried by the pulse but your watch for instance wouldnt. Even without a direct strike if lightning hit 10 fet from that component it would fry for sure and your watch and cell phone probably would too. If you were at ground zero for a high altitude detinated nuke (clear of blast/heat etc but within its intinded purpose for high altitude detination of the EMP) then the watch, cell, all computer stuff, anything marketed as 'smart', the digital clock and most anything electric or electronic especialy if plugged in or not protected will be fried includeing most likely the auto parts listed on older vehicles but people probably wouldnot be killed by the EMP.
  20. ColtCarbine

    ColtCarbine Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Well my vehicle doesn't have too many electrical components, at least the one easiest to get back on the road if an EMP went off. Definitely, nothing computerized. I have a computerized vehicle also but am not even going to consider what all would be needed. However, I wasn't sure about electrical motors or other electrical items. Guess I need to list what's there and figure it out what it would take to get it back on the road.
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