EMP Thoughts

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Yard Dart, Sep 7, 2013.


  1. DKR

    DKR Raconteur of the first stripe

    Hhhuuummm
    Given that the FedGov set off over 200 nukes (open air) 65 miles from Las Vegas - and the lights never went out... Guess I'd call the power company to see when they would be out to change the fuse.

    A lighting strike can generate 100 million to 1 billion volts, and contains billions of watts of energy. (NSSL data) - and lightening hits the National power grid a zillion times each summer... It does damage a few homes, I have friends that had to replace all of their appliances due to a strike. A couple of blocks away, no effect.

    A fun thought exercise, I guess, but something I don't worry about.

    A house fire, now that is something to worry about. Folks can worry over what they wish, of course, but what is most likely to happen?
     
  2. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    An aerial burst produces far greater EM effects than a ground detonation.
     
    Yard Dart and VisuTrac like this.
  3. Harbin

    Harbin Monkey+

    I've read that we have learned how to design nukes for a greater emp effect, something to keep in mind before marginalizing.
     
    Yard Dart and Brokor like this.
  4. mysterymet

    mysterymet Monkey+++

    When my house was struck by lightning it took out 2 big flat screens and my home network equipment. Blew a bunch of breakers and fried them, took out the hard wired smoke detectors, ever gfci and other stuff. Now we have whole house surge supressor to try and prevent that from happening again.
     
  5. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    Just a NOTE, here. The Physics of EMP is such that it is generated by a Hydrogen (Fusion) Bomb, and NOT a Fission Bomb. That is why the effect was never known, or seen, until the first H-Bomb/Bimini Test in the South Pacific. There were only a very few of those tests done, with an Air Burst, before Atmospheric Testing was Banned. So, there is little Empirical Data on the exact nature of the effect, gathered, since the first Test just Noted the Effect AFTER it was determined that the Test caused a problem in Hawaii, due to the timing of the effects and the timing of the detonation.

    Second thing to NOTE, here. Most Modern Nukes are Fission/Fusion/Fission Types that are designed to be Multi-Yield devices, and are scaleable in their energy production, by programing the amount of energy, from the Initiator Fusion Core, that gets focused on the Fusion Core, (Pit) by the Physics Lenses, inside the device, as it detonates. Specific EMP Devices, are like Neutron Bombs, in that they are designed to produce their Specific Effect, and NOT designed to just "Blow Things UP". Neutron Bombs just radiate MASSIVE High Energy Neutrons, that KILL living things but do NOT cause Physical Damage to non-living things, and leave little, or few, After-Effects, to the Area effected. EMP Devices are intended to KILL Electronics, and Electrical Things, while leaving Structures, and People, Un-effected. It also MUST be noted that there has NEVER been an actual TEST of an EMP Device, in an above Ground Detonation, so 99% of what we think we know, about them, is TOTALLY Theoretical.

    ..
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2013
    kellory, Yard Dart and Silversnake like this.
  6. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    I dunno if I can find the data again after so long, but I am certain China has tested EM weaponry, on record. Also, the U.S. secret gov't has developed tactical EM versions which can be controlled like Tomahawks.
     
  7. Yard Dart

    Yard Dart Vigilant Monkey Moderator

    Similar to a tactical nuke from an artillery round that affects a limited area such a as knocking out a few grid squares.

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
     
  8. NotSoSneaky

    NotSoSneaky former supporter

    I found THIS from 2011. There was something on teh interweb a couple days ago but now I can't find it.

     
    Brokor likes this.
  9. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Last edited: Sep 10, 2013
    NotSoSneaky likes this.
  10. Harbin

    Harbin Monkey+

    Brokor- That's the first I've heard about that one in TN. Any more info on that? Did they catch anyone? Any chance it was a test run?
     
  11. DMGoddess

    DMGoddess Monkey+++

    Brokor, jollyrodger13 and Yard Dart like this.
  12. DarkLight

    DarkLight Live Long and Prosper - On Hiatus

    I hope they only simulate the power going off and don't actually cut power anywhere. I can just see it now..."Grid Down Test Fails - Experts can't turn the power back on."
     
    Icefoot, Brokor, kellory and 2 others like this.
  13. Harbin

    Harbin Monkey+

    Maybe I lack imagination, but how do you "simulate" a grid down situation without actually killing power? Taking power away and turning it back on at sites with large loads is hard enough (initial surge, etc), let alone on a large scale like cities and states. I can't imagine how long it would take to actually get the grid back online after a large outage. Anyone know how long it took when the Northeast had that huge outage?
     
  14. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    Usually the local Power Distribution Control Centers, can isolate their incoming Transmission Lines, and then get the Transmitting Stations to reset their ends. This takes different amounts of time, depending on the type of Power Sources. Diesel is the quickest. Hydro is really fairly Fast. Coal and NG Steam Plants are medium, as they have to slowly build up Pressure to the Turbines, as the load increases. Nuke Plants take the longest, as they have to be very careful, when going from a SCRAM Condition, back to Hot Standby. Then once they are at Hot Standby, they are like the other Steam Plants. Once they have a few Sources up and feeding to the Receiving Subs, then it is a matter of bring the loads back on, without going over the maximum available Power available. This being for a Local Power Distribution Control Center. Once they have their Base Sources, and Loads, up and running, then they can start looking at bringing up Intertie Connections to the Grid, and syncing to the Master Grid Suppliers like TVA, and BPA.

    Places like Seattle, will Reset their Base Sources, Like the Skagit Dams, first and get the Base Loads back OnLine First. Then once those are stable again, they would be talking to BPA about bringing up the Cross State Intertie Lines from the Eastern Washington Dams, that they own. Once those were stable, they would be asking BPA for a few more Intertie Connections, to bring on the Columbia River Dams, and having them feed the Local PUDs that are users but have No Sources of their Own. The Nuke Plants at Hanford would be the Last. @melbo 's Wind Farms, would be there somewhere in the middle, if the wind was blowing.
     
    Yard Dart likes this.
  15. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    Problem with wind is that our generators are asynchronous and require vars, polarity and magnetism from the grid before we can produce. In other words, if there isn't valid grid power, wind can't come online. Wind Energy Of course, we'll still take taxpayer money whether we produce or not ;)
     
    jollyrodger13, VisuTrac and BTPost like this.
  16. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    Ok, M... So the BPA's Columbia River Dams would at least have to be Basing the BPA Receiving SubStation, where Melbo's Wind Machines make their InterTie Connection, before they could be added to the Mix. Likely there would be a series of Local places that have their OWN Power Sources, that would come back online, in a Limited way, independent of the Major Grid Players, like BPA and TVA. Then as the Major Grid Players start having their Sources, come back, they will then start allowing their Users to bring their Systems back Online, and slowly work up to Full Load. The PhoneLines and Data Connections between these Controls Centers would VERY Busy, for a very LONG Time, coordinating the Restart. for sure.
     
  17. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    Anyway you look at it, it's going to be a challenge, especially if you're also dealing with EMP damaged equipment. Some MGSU transformers take 6-8 months to build and most folks don't have spares. If we ever see a direct EMP that affects my area, I'm probably going to walk home and go fishing.
     
  18. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    and there will not be any phones working, for them to call you, and say "Hey, we can accept your Power Now, if you like".....

    The Grid is like the City Water Systems.... Very few people, who do NOT work in the field, have any clue about how the System operates, and what it takes to keep it going. All they know is they turn on the Tap or the Switch and Water, or Light, comes out. If it doesn't .... Oh Well, it will be back later.... They just HOPE, that Later is Sooner......
     
  19. DMGoddess

    DMGoddess Monkey+++

    That's what I've been thinking about. If you lack imagination, then so do I. I can think of millions of ways this could go wrong ... or be sabotaged.
     
  20. Yard Dart

    Yard Dart Vigilant Monkey Moderator

    I think you hit the crux of the situation regarding replacement parts for damaged electrical system components. Most sub-stations and BPA yards have many components for localized failures. But when it comes to a regional or national outage we will run out of replacement transformers, control components and assorted gear that drives the distribution system.

    Then you look at areas of priority to re-energize such as command & control facilities (FEMA, DHS, and so on) and state, county assets.... all other urban areas as well as rural regions will be in limbo (no juice) for quite some time.
     
    BTPost and tulianr like this.
survivalmonkey SSL seal        survivalmonkey.com warrant canary
17282WuJHksJ9798f34razfKbPATqTq9E7