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era of legal torture over?

Discussion in 'Freedom and Liberty' started by Tango3, Dec 14, 2007.


  1. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

  2. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    Re: era of legal tortureover?

    Too bad that won't extend to tasers.


    Hmmm.... it only took 231 years for us to officially outlaw it?
     
  3. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Re: era of legal tortureover?

    atleast it limits interrogation to whats in an army f.m.No waffling about the meaning of "pain".
     
  4. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    Re: era of legal tortureover?

    Still gotta pass Senate and then Presidential signature. It barely passed Congress, from what I understand.
     
  5. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Re: era of legal tortureover?

    Even if it passes it only means that it goes back to haveing to be hiden better not that it stops, not to mention that the gov could still go back to handing the prisoners over to Israil or other allies with no such problems.
     
  6. hartage

    hartage Monkey+++

    Re: era of legal tortureover?

    Legal my a$$ we signed the geneva convention. I propose that it was never legal to begin with. We should focus our efforts in bringing the criminals to justice from the interrogators all the way up to the bush king. Why these criminals are still walking free escapes me.

    We prosecute people that stole a TV. What about people that steal basic human rights ? Are those of value even less than a stupid TV ?
     
  7. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    Re: era of legal tortureover?


    Uhhhh.... yeah, they are more valuable in this society. We care more about Paris Hilton's latest exploit or what Anna Nicole had in her fridge when she died than about our troops getting killed in Iraq, or the constitution, or the gov spying on us.... or anything.
     
  8. hartage

    hartage Monkey+++

    Re: era of legal tortureover?


    Yeah that is just sad. We care more about Clinton's *** stain or Hilton's latest lover than we do 4000+ troop lives and 500+ billion spent. Where the hell did we go wrong as a country and community ??
     
  9. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    Re: era of legal tortureover?


    Corporatism.
     
  10. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    Re: era of legal tortureover?

    Funny I dont see one for Terrorist listed above
     
  11. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Re: era of legal tortureover?

    "George bush don't like black people; george bush don;'t like black people"
     
  12. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    Re: era of legal tortureover?

    I'm torn on this issue to a degreee. As with anyone I have no sympathy for an enemy of these United States. And in war, I don't believe that you can have rules. especially with an enemy that has no national affiliation.
    But, with that said, allowing this type of torture under the guise of "neccessary" for the "War on Terror" is a very slippery slope.

    It may be acceptable, in some rare instances, but to sanction it for one cause opens the door for a myriad of unintended consequences.
    If we santion torture then what about our troops if we get into a war with Iran or Syria? Would our use of these methods give them the excuse to employ them on our captured troops?

    And the most worrisome of all, what if our definition of "terrorist" expands? Only a few years ago the Attorny General of the United States said that anyone who, homeschooled their children, believed in the second coming of Christ, was a supporter of the Constitution and the second amendment was a potential "terrorist".
    Therein lies the danger. What we allow today may be employed against us tomorrow.

    And the fact that we as Americans should lead the world by example. The values and morals that we cherish cannot be adopted by others if we don't live up to them ourselves. This kind of treatment, no matter the reason, needed or not, it still lowers us and degrades our moral authority.
    I say that we should take the high road. Err on the side of right and justice.

    If I were to lose family, friends, or even my own life because we as a nation decided to not debase ourselves with deplorable conduct, to hold ourselves to a higher standard, then I say that they/I gave our lives for a noble cause.
     
  13. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Re: era of legal tortureover?

    they say waterboarding"broke"one of the "bad guys in 35 second and saved lives.I don't want a terrorist strike of any kind to to go off in major city either. but I am leery of giving an admininistration (with this record of denying rights,denying access to information, and of running over and checks and balances.) The power to legally intimidate dissent .Tough issue..
     
  14. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    Re: era of legal tortureover?

    I don't see it as a tough issue at all. We as Americans have to take to moral high-ground. When the exception is made, it should be with the knowledge that only the Victor will own the spoils and if it doesn't pan out, then you may be shot as a war criminal, just like Nuremberg. This knowledge will halt most of the "fishing" expeditions. We cannot take exceptions as the rule. Our Constitution protects the guilty until proven innocent and until proven other-wise, we cannot afford to let this continue and still pretend our principals are just.
    <hr noshade="noshade" size="1"> Amendment IV
    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
    <hr noshade="noshade" size="1"> Amendment V
    No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
    <hr noshade="noshade" size="1"> Amendment VI
    In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
     
  15. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    Re: era of legal tortureover?

    Let me play devils advocate before someone else raises the argument.
    These "terrorists" aren't US citizens and therefore not entitled to any constitutional protections.

    This is the argument put forth by the current administration. They are not even prisoners of war, they are "enemy combatants".

    While this is a convenient argument fo the treatment of the current enemy of the state, you have to seperate the intended from the intent.

    What is justified today against a common enemy can be abused tomorrow.
    A precedent, once established and accepted will never be rescinded.

    The first gun control laws in this nation were enacted to keep guns out of the hands of newly freed slaves. Once the precedent was established it has been expanded upon until it now affects everyone of us. Far beyond the original intent.

    You have to put yourself into the place of any intended recipient of any new statute or precedent, because history shows that it may well be used against those who originally supported it.
     
  16. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    Does God protect only Americans? If it walks on two legs, I will give it the same consideration that I would give my brother. If it endangers my life, I will take whatever measures required to extricate myself from the threat but will not do anything that I can stand before my maker and not be ashamed of.
     
  17. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member


    Very well put Sea. That is what it boils down to. Should we be ashamed of dropping the bomb on Japan? No, not in my opinion. We ended a war that would have cost thousands of more lives.

    But to abuse a captured soldier/combatant/terrorist/criminal/etc is not something that we could nor should ever condone.

    Waterboarding not torture? Doesn't leave permanent scars. Ok, how about electricity to the genitals, bamboo or rubber hose whippings? Where does it end? It is a quagmire and bottomless pit that we dare not open.
     
  18. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    If I understand this correctly, we have declared war on Terrorism? Then all captured combatants should only be required to give their name, rank, and identifying number. We executed Germans and Japanese as war-criminals for torturing our captured troops into revealing more than that.
     
  19. hartage

    hartage Monkey+++

    The signers of the Declaration of Independence deemed it a "self evident truth" that all men are "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights".


    But hey, I guess our declaration of independence is really just a bunch of mumbo jumbo to be used only when it suits us. It only applies when WE are the oppressed. I guess some people feel that when WE are the stronger power all those words are just that, worthless words.


    We declared there are unalienable rights that belong to every human being. We should follow the words we put forth to the world. A man is only as good as his word.
     
  20. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    We declared there are unalienable rights that belong to every human being. We should follow the words we put forth to the world. A man is only as good as his word.[/quote]

    Amen
     
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