Discussion in 'Faith and Religion' started by Ganado, Oct 9, 2016.
Oh my....this meme has been doing the rounds of the F&R forum for several years.....(Good old Albert | Survival Monkey Forums and This one is for the Atheists here | Survival Monkey Forums) it contains a number of logical fallacies, and its purpose is basically to bolster faith, (principally the Christian faith) at the expense of reason, by making science and professors appear to be silly, and by attacking evolution as a scientific theory. There is absolutely no evidence that the student actually was Einstein, or that this supposed conversation actually took place. The meme is, if anything, a contemptibly risible religious apologetic not worth the digital ink that it is published in.
Einstein proves God in an encounter with a professor-Fiction!
Did Einstein prove that God exists?
Atheist professor myth - RationalWiki
A detailed refutation of the logic, (if it could be called logic) contained in the OP referenced "Einstein and the Professor" anecdote, used to construct the OP religious apologetic is as follows....
An alternative conversation between an apocryphal professor and an apocryphal "student"
Is the conversation good or bad, right or wrong, true or false? I don't really care. I happen to believe in a God, find it comforting, and really could care less what anyone else thinks. I am not out to make anyone else a disciple of mine or of my beliefs, don't wish to convert the rest of the world to my beliefs, could care less what their beliefs are as long as they don't effect me in a negative way, and really would like it if they didn't try to convert me either through persuasion, legal tactics or the use of force. Is the sun going to come up in a few hours? I really hope so as if it doesn't, I don't think my preps will do me much good. Do I really know why it will come up? Well it could be God's will, the rotation of the earth, thermonuclear reactions in the sun, etc. It would be really nice if it does come up and I don't really care why as long as it does and I don't freeze, burn, die of radiation, my greenhouse and gardens keep on working, I can see to do things, etc. I guess it boils down to faith, I believe in God, some believe in science, some in their next drunk or fix and ignore the whole subject, some don't have the resources or the ability to worry about it, and I guess in the grand scheme of things, what I believe or think really doesn't matter. Don't try to lecture the cat, he could care less, it irritates him, and he really isn't going to change his habits.
chelloveck why are you so mad at God
Goodness john....By god, I'm assuming that you are referring to the Abrahamic god....is there any other? No, john...I'm not angry at god...any more than I am angry at Vishnu, Thor, Jupiter, Osiris, Chronos or any other deity for that matter....it makes no sense to be angry at entities for which there is scant evidence for their existence, other than as figures in human myths, legends, fables and fantasies.
If I have any lack of patience, it is with smug, self serving theistic apologetics that are badly argued and that are riddled with logical fallacies...such as the OP referenced apocryphal battle between a big bad professor, and a smug, snotty, not very bright, scientifically illiterate student. I prefer to believe in as many true things as I can, and as few false things as I can....for some, that is not so important, as merely believing the world view that they feel comfortable with, regardless of what is true, and what is false.
I think Zinnia Jones explains it more eloquently than I have.
Who is lecturing a cat?? I'm planting seeds....who knows, some may germinate, and start the processes of doubt, and enquiry. Such are the beginnings of apostasy, and the shucking off of religious belief. The thing is....a person's beliefs can change...even if a cat might not have any beliefs other than that the person they own is slack at feeding it.
Usually a person's beliefs don't change as a consequence of a single, brilliantly constructed intellectual argument....it, will often change however when a person absorbs and processes new information that brings into question the underpinnings of the original religious faith paradigm (that is the basis upon which converting people from believing one god and religion to a different god and religion relies.)....those uncomfortable doubts and new insights may alter a person's existing beliefs to a new set of beliefs, at variance to the person's original worldview.
I was once a very devout, pious Christian, but it was only with a critical evaluation of the truth claims made in the Bible (unmediated by clerics or religious apologists) that my commitment to faith in Christianity unraveled. It no longer made any rational sense. The kind of simplistic and dishonest theistic apologetics typified in the OP apocryphal story made the whole business of believing an unbelievable creed less and less tenable, to the point that I had to recognize that I was no longer a theist, let alone a Christian theist...and so here I am. winnowing the chaff: what is bad from good, what is wrong from right, and what is false from what is true. It does matter to me; and it should matter to those who value what is good, what is right, and what is true.
Jesus provided something far better then faith , He provided the Holy Spirit to dwell in and teach those committed to God, in Jesus name.
This guidance transcends any knowledge one can gather in human terms, and serves others God is ministering to.
Some one that has no actual commitment to God there is no obligation on His part to respond in any way .
Being religious has little, if any thing, to do with it.
God know's the heart of man. they that do not respect the fact, even being religious, have the most trouble in their concept of God . This is why academics are NOT a relationship , the are a distraction.
Men are so deceitful among one another they assume to be deceitful with God .
God hates lies an false fronts shifting blame and excuses. Stark contrast by the way to Allah
People with these issues usually never see any thing of God in their life, because they have lived in a world of deception. even self deception. Allah works in deception and lies. fact.
Atheist's have faith in men that teach their version of science but have not take the time to discover if what they are told are actually fact them self.
I do not take for granted what some preacher had told me to believe. I sought God on my own, determined to know Him, and serve Him in a relationship He provided for me.
Those that propose them selves paleontologist, have built creatures out of speculation on a fragment, not fact, and handed it to the world as though it were fact.
People that want to believe in evolution, resistant to believing in God, buy into it with more faith than christianity, completely dependent on some one's speculation .
Also why would some one want to discourage another from believing in God , if that person actually has a belief the includes behaving because God is always aware. encouraging them to behave with greater morals.
Do people with a higher regard to the values and morals offend ?
Why would any one want more wicked people around ?
Wow, @chelloveck really gets mad when people seem to attack his religion.
So..... Water is Wet, and What else is A Given.....
Personally, I think God gets all the blame for religions that do all these crazy things in his name or because it was written in some book a thousand years ago, I wonder about that publisher/editor... So, for me, I believe in God but not religion - if that makes any sense. Religion in my opinion has a lot to atone for...and cannot be trusted. I do understand an atheist's viewpoint and in return I hope that they can understand mine but if not - well - I have lost nothing...but them? Perhaps. And, we'll all know soon enough...
I think it's wise not to poke Chello on this subject since he's been civil and hasn't resorted to being abrasive.
I think it is good to have debate and sincere discussion on religion, or else it would be quite boring if it was only one-sided praise and worship. So long as it is civil, I am content.
On the subject, I did have a thought or two. I remember first reading The Age of Reason, by Thomas Paine. It helped me to recognize some of the fallacies of religion and the attraction that mystery, prophecy, and the promise of an afterlife offer.
That was absolutely....well...awesome! IMHO!!!
Nobody in this thread thus far has attacked my non-religion or non theistic beliefs, even if some have made ham fisted efforts at demonstrating their understanding of science, evolution, and their own faith's claims to moral superiority, et al: but if it suits your purpose to suggest that I am angry...then that is on you; not on me, nor on others. And what would my religion be, that you perceive me to be so angry about others attacking???
On the other hand, gods get all the kudos for religions that do all the beneficial stuff done in his/her/its/their name(s), or because it was written in some book a thousand years ago. I find it difficult to give a hide-and-go-seek Teflon god much worshipful adoration when his/her/its/their believers do awful, cruddy things....yet bask in all the glory of the wonderful things that their followers do. If there were a Nuremburg type tribunal for godly crimes against humanity....there would be a number of gods who would be most worthy of indictment....the evidence is there, readily to be seen in the great sacred texts.
the Great Spirit does not give me what I want but the great spirit gives me what I need---that what I have faith in--------don't need to see the great spirit to know he,s there
Well that was an interesting debate.
I liked it because a student stood up to a professor's pseudo logic and out did him with more pseudo logic.
Belief and logic are separate components that make up what it is to be human. Even lack of belief is a belief.
A lack of belief is simply a lack of belief, the reasons underpinning a lack of belief, may involve some belief perhaps, but ....one may as well say non stamp collecting is stamp collecting. I have a lack of belief in many things....mostly because I have never given any conscious thought to issues unknown or unknowable to me (yet), that may have given rise to any kind of belief, one way or t'other.
That's laden with depth unknown. But I painted it blue.
If you hold the belief that it should be painted blue....then knock yourself out...paint it blue: if you lack a belief that it should be painted blue, then you are free to not paint it any colour at all, or to paint it any colour at all, other than the colour(s) that you lack the belief that it should be painted. Or you could just do a Jackson Pollock and.....
it if that is what you believe. Who knows, it might be worth something in 50 years time.
I used to be a Christian and I remained a Christian as I began to question my beliefs. The science of evolution was something I looked at with scepticism at first but I managed to keep an open mind. I began to realize that I acquired my faith not through any kind of logic or reason but because that's just what I was taught to believe since I was a kid. It was at this point that I was able to step out side of the box of Christianity and look at it for what it is. It seems that getting outside of the box is the hardest part for most people because most people see it as a way of "admitting defeat". Well I had nothing to prove to myself besides the truth of my own existence on this earth. My faith was based on things that were told to me as they were stated in a book. I did quite a bit of study with the bible when I was a kid and around the time that I began questioning my faith I referred back to it often. It was then that I began to compare the bible to reality and I realized how it doesn't quite match. Not in the way that the theory of evolution does.
Sure, I understand. A planet just randomly coming into existence from a cosmic event which places it at the precise distance from the Sun to freeze and melt H2O is a 1 in 1,000,000,000 x etc. event. But I still find it easier to believe than the idea of a divine consciousness that suddenly decided he was bored and wanted to make life... and then just kind of watches everything play out like a soap opera. I'm sorry but I personally need more solid fact to go on and evolution provides that for me. No, it is not a religion and please don't call it that! I hate it when people do that because it has no guide for a code or morality. The closest thing to a religion evolution has ever been was eugenics. Eugenics is a mockery of evolution in my opinion and simply a way that Hitler attempted to manipulate his people. Eugenics is what you get if you try to treat evolution as a collective religion with an "only the strong will prevail" mindset. I'm sure that is the reason that evolution is demonized by many.
I apply evolution in a different way in my life than I think most people would. It could be because I'm formerly a Christian that I have my philosophy structured as I do but I have made my philosophy my own and evolution is at its foundation. It's simple, I try to live to be the kind of person that I would hope my future children will be. It encourages me to be a good person since I realize that basically everything that makes me me will be passed onto them. I also try to take my time with finding a mate and do soul searching to determine who I want to make up the other side of my child's genetics. It's important to me that my child has a good future... it seems to be a concept lost with most people today including theists.
I also have a belief in an afterlife which some people might find unique among atheists. I just want to remind you that ALL "atheism" means is: the absence of a belief in a god or deity.
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