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Finding Others....Sheesh!

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by dragonfly, Jul 31, 2011.

  1. dragonfly

    dragonfly Monkey+++

    What a simple sounding 2 word sentence!
    But, it ends there...I know, I have been trying for a long time to get people interested in helping me set up and secure my 3 parcels of land.
    I posted a variety of ads in "survival blog's "finding others", (a sole and seperate site)...to no real avail. Oh, I got answers, quite a few of them! However they all had certain "NEEDS" and "CONDITIONS", which I was required to meet....Some were not so bad other demands were outlandish.

    EG: A 'fire pit' no less than 9 to 12 feet in diameter and 3 feet in depth, to be used at their sole discretion whenever and however they desired.
    ( Not up there, as you may have seen just recently we had the largest fire in Arizona's history!)
    I was told in NO uncertain terms that it was a "dealbreaker", well.... they were right on that!

    Then I had one couple that required me to pay for their trucks repairs, pay for gas, oil, tires, and room and meals, for the 2 of them all the way from Illinois! Then they were going to "live off the land", in a tent no less....these people were in their mid to late 60's!

    We get some fierce winds ( last clocked at 58 mph one day this year) and the cold gets down into the sub teens (-16) registered last year.

    I had a "elderly" couple that desired a 4 bedroom home and 24/7 nursing care for their mother ( in-law?)...PLUS $200 a week for each of them, satellite tv, phone service with long distance, and electric, and a heated pool and or, a jacuzzi!

    Ok, well..... some people are just so far out there that they fell off the "edge" long long ago......

    Recently I had a man contact me...he was interested and we talked several times (at my cost) long distance from Illinois.....It was him and his wife. Then as a few days went by we were to meet somewhere in the middle of July, to the first week of August (this year!).
    Then things began to change....Now there was a teenage boy that would be coming along.
    I had no real issues with that.
    Then it changed again! Now there would be 2- 21 and 18 year old girls coming, the 16 year old brother and the man, his wife, and a "toddler".....? But,....
    wait for it.....
    Yup, it changed yet once more.
    Now in addition to the above, there would be a male "friend" or his (buddy) coming along as well.....
    Hmmmmmmm,.... My confidence in this scenario was already thread bare and unraveling fast!
    Then I was TOLD ( not asked) that I'd need to supply them with housing for all of them and at the minimum, some 90 days of food!

    Just When did I lose control here?
    Like the old saying: "give some people an inch and they'll take a mile"!

    I met one guy that had recently bought a parcel of land up near mine ( about a mile further north) and he was all ready to go ( gung ho type). However he was so thrilled because he managed to get the parcel for much less than the current prices of : $2,000 per acre, or from $3,500 to $5,000 for 2.21-2.27 acres. He had only paid $1,625. for his 2.21 acres.
    But what he did not realize or bother to check out is WHY his land was offered so cheaply. I checked and discoverd he had bought land smack dab in the middle of a flood plain...Now that can be good or bad. Good if you have a riased area of the land to live on, and if you don't mind being surrounded by a MOAT at times...
    Plus, you might want to build a "draw bridge"! ( just in case!) He went and bought the land sight unseen ( pig in a poke?) and finally went up for a "visit" months later....He stayed 4 days 3 nights and the last I heard from him (3 months ago)...He was on his way to New Hampshire!
    He put the place up for sale on Ebay but got no results at all. He was asking for $5,200, plus an addtional $200 for the paperwork/transfer of title. From what I have since discovered, he has bought land in at least 3 states now, and abandoned each one, for some reason or another.
    Once he saw what I refer to as "isolated", he was not at all happy....

    Many go out there with grandiose ideas of some "castle" for a survival area or retreat. They get "educated" very fast.
    Whenever I read about those people that say they will "live off the land" well, maybe you can.... IF you live in an area with fantastic soils, rainfall, and have a lake or river closeby!
    Now I say this "tongue in cheek", as some are far more experienced in hunting and other skills which I have little knowledge in. But, I know a sows ear when I see it!
    This is the only reason I can give when anyone that asks me: "why on earth did you buy land up there"? Because, there is NOTHING up there, nothing that anyone wants, wants to see, or even thinks anything of any value could be found, in such a crummy place! Good reason to me!
    It was reasonable ("cheap") to me, by all means...I only paid $3,500 for a 2.27 acre plot and $8,000 for 2- 2.21 acres plots ( adjoining).
    Now it has many "amenities" few can see...
    Isolation is what I was looking for, hard to get into, and almost impossible in winter time and when it rains. The roads are where people have driven and wore down the wild grasses......No signs. Nada. You have to learn the "lay of the land" or get LOST, in no time at all. I know, I did! ( twice!)
    But there is also water, IF you know where it is and why it's there.....natural aquifer and artesian wells.
    The soil is crappy. Lots of obsidian glass, and volcanic rock and ash. Very acidic. You learn the hard way when you try to put in fence posts and such, that there is a plate of caliche as hard as concrete, just under the surfce in some places, and it can be up to 4 feet thick! (requires a power auger on a backhoe or Bobcat to penetrate)
    I have to haul in water, right now....
    All power is from wind or gas generator or solar.....
    I have 2 solar systems and 2 generators. Now, cellular phones work up there as long as the weather permits! You can get satellite internet and tv services with no problems......
    I have only cell phone service.
    I don't even OWN a tv!
    (I want cartoons!) So I'm weird ok?
    The so called "trees" in the area, are what you and I would call "landscaping" Junipers, no more than 12-14 feet tall, no more thn 4 inches in diameter. Some are cedars, and make great firewood....But they are thick in a lot of places, and you can easily walk 10 or 12 feet and literally disappear!
    No lakes close by ( about 7 miles) no rivers, no streams, but a LOT of what the State Game and Fish dept. call "trophy size" Elk, White Tailed Deer, and Antelope. A few Javelina ( I have not seen one yet) tons of cotton tail rabbits, a few mountain lions, and bears are supposed to be around.
    I do know about the large ELK!
    Man, I almost walked into one and I have seen big, but I thought it was MOOSE! Scared me silly! Now that's a lot of meat on the hoof!
    Then there's the danged coyotes....more of them than anything else!
    So that's the scenario. Bland and unforgiving. Not pretty by anyone's estimation, but it's out there, away from people, cities, and the last (4 now) persons that tried to ride their motorcycles into the area: all were seriously hurt. We have some deep ruts, soft soils, washes, and ROCKS!
    They take their toll on tires, transmissons, and twist and tear vehicle bodies. And people that are NOT cautious!
    So, it's hard enough to find people able to deal with the roughness of the terrain, much less the winters and mud, but then most have some "fantasy" ideas that all come crashing down, when they really see the place... I'm no salesman, so I tell them the way it is, and have a nice collection of photos to show: it's NOT a 5 star hotel, no room service, and they have to be in good physical and mental condition.
    VERY Few that I have talked with, had lunch or dinner with, have any real viable 'skill sets' to help them survive in the area. As I said I am NOT a hunter, unless you count rabbits, pheasant, dove or quail. Most such as me, would be hard pressed to clean and dress or butcher out a large animal out there. It would be a messy waste of meat.
    It can be done ( survival up there) but you have to have a good mindset and a "Postive Mental Attitude", above all else!
    I'm still holding out hope against hope, that I will "find" the right person or people that can handle the area.....You never know!
  2. VisuTrac

    VisuTrac Ваша мать носит военные ботинки Site Supporter+++

    I'd love to be your neighbor. Alas, Michigan is a long way from AZ. And I'm pretty sure the heat would kill this old fat Michigan Bear.
  3. BTPost

    BTPost Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    DragonFly... Your experience is very common. We get Summertime Wonders, wondering thru my country every year. Some that just hang out, many who look at land, but then just leave after a day or two, because of the isolation of the area. A VERY Few that say they can stick it out, but come October, disappear and never return. It takes a real mindset to take raw land and build a place, even if there is a road back to civilization. (which we do not have here) The folks that do live in my neighborhood, have spent decades building their outfits, and making it livable for themselves. It has always been my policy, to ask Newbies what their 2 and 5 Year Plan is, when they first show up. That usually "Tells the Tail" on if they are going to be able to make it, this far out. No Plan, No chance of making it. No 5 YEAR Plan, Long gone before October. So far, 99% accuracy. If your responders have conditions, that means they are NOT the ones your looking for.... ..... YMMV....
    dragonfly likes this.
  4. beast

    beast backwoodsman

    what exactly are you looking for?
  5. Seawolf1090

    Seawolf1090 Adventure Riding Monkey Founding Member

    DF, sounds like YOU need to set the conditions up front - let them know what to expect, and what will be expected and required of them!

    Heck, add ol' "El Blanco" and you'd darned near have "Perfection, Nevada".......

    dragonfly likes this.
  6. LogOut

    LogOut Monkey+

    I was in two seperate groups which started recently, the first was about 30 folks who came together from another forum, the only thing they could agree on was that they wanted to buy anywhere from 100 to 500 acres. Some just wanted someplace to "go shoot holes in trees". Others wanted some kinda "hippies with guns commune".
    One guy thought we were gonna build some kinda palace out in the woods and all he wanted to know was "When can I have the place just for my family without you guys? " Guess he thought it was like a timeshare I guess.

    Seven of us wrangled a way to form a sub group and then collapse the larger disfunctional "group". All of us were veterans, and several were active LEO's. Drew up a charter, had by-laws and actually came up with a plan for a much smaller, realistic operation. Everything worked on paper.

    We had regular meetings, made a list of our strengths and weaknesses and started trainging. Carpentry, plumbing, first aid, alternate energy, firearms the whole nine yards. We even started several fundraising efforts ( That's as far as I'll describe it) to facilitate a land deal.

    Then the one guy of the group who had never served in the military deceided the rest of us weren't up to his standard of "military prepardness" and went off on a rant about several members (which is as far as I'll take that aspect of this), and how he'd never be able to turn his back to us when we were armed.

    Within three days no one was talking to each other, and a decision was made to distribute the accmulated funds and disband.

    All is takes is one nut case to totally blow years of work. I've never been so po'd or felt so used in my entire life.
    Cephus and dragonfly like this.
  7. bad_karma00

    bad_karma00 Monkey+

    I've always had one approach to the 'mag' idea. I'll live in the kingdom, but in my own castle. It's fine to have people willing and able to help one another in times of trouble. But a 'combine' effort never seems to work out. Why? For some of the very reasons mentioned here. Most of you are more experienced than I am, and still you have trouble.

    That means I could expect no less, and probably more, as I would likely make mistakes many of you would not.

    If everyone has their own castle, so to speak, and maintain their own way, yet can still come together in times of need or danger, it looks to me like that would be the best way to go.

    Like I said, I'm not nearly so experienced as many of you, so I may be over simplifying things.
  8. -06

    -06 Monkey+++

    Would be extremely careful who I invited or even told about my "place". If martial law/etc. happens and rewards are offered for information you could easily be cashed in. There is a difference between friends and those whose only ambition is to use you. Dad used to say that you can count your true friends on the fingers of one hand.
  9. beast

    beast backwoodsman

    "Dad used to say that you can count your true friends on the fingers of one hand."

    and usually have lots of extra fingers
    dragonfly likes this.
  10. BTPost

    BTPost Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    Group dynamics is always hard to deal with. The larger the group, the harder it is to deal with. Strong Leader Groups usually do well, until the Leader dies, or goes beyond what the Group will tolerate. Especially if the Group has NO Central Ideology that makes a foundation for the group. We had a thread on this specific topic last winter, that should be still in the archives. The best system for NOW, in MY Opinion, would be a loose confederation of local folks, each having their own Place, and Preps, and banded together for
    self-protection, and maybe even some limited Group Purchasing. Then let the confederation build from there, if folks can work it out, comfortably. What usually kills off these type of groups, is exactly what happened to Logout's Group. One member gets a wild Hair, and causes so much grief, that the group disbands, as the grief is more than the individuals can put up with, so they all go their separate ways. Groups with a Central Founding Ideology will always do well, as long as the Family comes FIRST, and the Ideology comes Second, with other concerns after that. this is why Religious Foundation Groups have been around for long periods, with little interruption.
  11. Mountainman

    Mountainman Großes Mitglied Site Supporter+++

    I have always found that the only way to lead a group is to have a dictator type system, unfortunately just like .goob runs things. When everyone has a say in what is going on nothing can be agreed on. My wife and I are in our Alamo and we will not bring anyone else in until SHTF and I see how the people we know handle it.
    Sapper John and dragonfly like this.
  12. Suerto

    Suerto Monkey+

    I have just begun narrowing down potential properties dragon, and, have shown some pics to a couple of friends who want to be prepared, but, have wives who demand otherwise, and to my surprise, they are offering to put up money for some of it..

    I've explained that theres no electricity (grid power) and that its in the middle of nowhere (nearest wally world over an hour away).. But they are still interested, in just being "in" on a place they can run too when SHTF.. I told them I will not be prepping for them, unless they give me money to add additional rooms to the bunker or money for food storage.. lol

    It takes good friends or people on the exact same page to make it work.. and even then, it can be tenuous..

    I have a buddy who lives nearby the property that we are looking at, he has been there since 06' and struggled shortly after he moved there until recently (found better job and more time at home). He's got a "loose confederation" group of 10 or so who are "with him" yet live over 900 miles away, and have yet to go visit and/or help physically.. I'm not in this "clique" although he wants me there cuz he feels he could count on my word more than cats in his group.. now thats messed up..
  13. dragonfly

    dragonfly Monkey+++

    I've seen "groups" come and go...some large, mostly smaller ones.
    The "dynamics" and the "personality" clash is the culprit. Some have a great deal to share and some have none. Those that are the "weak links" are the ones that cause the problems it always seems.

    Lot's of "arm chair Generals" out there today. They aer supposed to be all full of information and skills...well,... they are full of something alright!
    ( most have read a lot of "novels", so that makes them far wiser than the rest!)
    Most vets ( ex mil) are the best in my opinion, due to their ability to adapt to the situation, think fast on their feet, and respect a "leaders" decisions.
    Few are able to cope with the mndset. It's a wonderworld of "wannabe's"!
    I have no qualms with 99% of people, it's the 1% that get to me.
    I found long ago, in a place far away, I prefer NOT to be a leader. But I will follow a qualified person. I am always open and learn each and every day from all kinds of people. (Some are as young as 11 years old! )
    My whole "precept/concept", if you will, was to work for the better of those involved. No more, no less. I have worked for a lot of people, men and women alike. and I found I ws ameniable to taking orders....to a degree, depends on what they asked me to do! Some made sense and I had no issues with what I was told, others were out in left field and I ignored them. Sometimes, ignoring the owner or the supervisor is NOT the best thing to do.....I have lost a few jobs and I never looked back. Few employers I have ever had, are still in business to this day. It's no wonder.
    I have dealt with religious people , agnostics, antagonistics, and a few nut jobs! Life is a learning experience for sure!
    My expectations were not too high, ( I thought!) but it seems I always managed to get those that wanted to be cared for and supported with no sweat on their parts. I've had some people that only wanted me to give them land ( for free) of course....I tried to reason with some and just chose to ignore others.
    First there were requests, then they became bizarre, then they became demands!

    The whole idea (mine) was really quite simple:
    1) Find people able to exist/survive out there on their own, as I travel back and forth bringing in supplies and equipment. ( must be self sufficient)
    2) They would perform basic site security, until fences were put in, and then it would get even easier. ( walking, listening, and looking)
    3) They were offered an equal share of all foods we were to grow, and have shares in the rabbits, chickens, eggs, etc. as well.
    4) As for the land, I am solely responsible for the payments (which will end soon!) and all taxes.
    5) The persons that would be on site "caretakers" as it were, would have a section of land for their own usage, and they could bring in a mobile home, travel trailer/s, (any hard top), anything BUT a tent. They could even build if they chose to do so.
    6) I would provide them with a signed and notarized agreement that allows them egrees and ingress 24/7/365, until revoked.
    7) Only cause/s for revocation of the agreement was "IF" they chose to bring in other people NOT "pre-approved" ( I'm still working on that part!), or failed to comply with the basics: trash removal and disposal, septic and waste containment, and light and sound discipline....(seems easy enough?)
    I can see I was WRONG!

    Some had grandiose ideas of using nearly 1-11/2 acres of the topsoil to fill sandbags to build a home, (3-4 bedroom no less) and some wanted to use the trees to build with ( uh...not happening!) 3 reasons why they can't cut down all my trees:
    1) they are a windbreak ( really needed up there at times)
    2) they provide concealment ( why defoiliate the area?)
    3) those "trees" won't build a nice dog house with the wood you'd get! (far too tiny)

    Owning 3 parcels, of which 2 are as far away as 600 feet and adjoined, I thought I could make a decent offer to allow someone to use the area for living and growing.
    I guess I was wrong..
    For the strangest of reasons, I get people that want hot tubs or swimming pools!
    I had a few that wanted to raise pygmie goats, literally hundreds of them!
    Uh no.....I have seen that mess and the stench and flies are horrendous.
    ( I don't eat mutton/sheep, or gaot meat or milk)
    Besides that's an OPEN invitation to the locals, 2 and 4 legged types to come in. Noise is a real issue up there being in a "cul-de-sac" type of area and sound resonates really well ( as in severly BAD echoes).
    A few ( which I had agreed to) wanted to build a 100 yd. shooting range. I have NO problems with that, and have set in motion a "collection" via several people, to acquire a LOT of old used tires to stack, filled with rammed earth.
    But,... I have had the discomfort of being with a "group" that always had their firearms loaded, and they shot at anyhting and everything, and they barely could hold their weapons, as they had one hand wrapped around a beer can!
    That "association" ended very quickly!
    I've had a few from Kalifornia that wanted to use the land and concealment ( isolation) to come in and grow their "crops" ! Not happening!
    Besides, there are alrady some large "gardens" shall we say, of those crops already in the area....And to top that, we have a still running up there!
    Not mine and NO I am not associated with those wacko's either.
    Now, IF they were making ethanol for fuels.....Well that's a different thing altogether!
    As it currently exists there are perhaps less than 4 people, maybe 3 ( including myself) that would be up there in any event.
    My son has only been there 3 times since march 2009. I go up 2-3 time a year right now, as I am unable to take and leave anything I wish to keep.
    On one of my "fateful" trips up north, I fell and broke the left arm radius bone at the elbow. During the short time I was gone into the local town to seek any medical assistance, a "scum bag" releived me of a 150 ft roll of chicken wire. I have NOT seen him since, as he was told I was not a happy camper, and that I was "interested" in his whereabouts.
    There are some scrappers up there ( I call them what they are: THIEVES and Tweakers and DRUGGIES). It's that simple. But, we have them here in town ( Phoenix) as well. They are more prolific up there, as they can't be seen so easy or caught. A strange thing to note: When I go up, I am asked to announce my departure from Phoenix, giving them a 2 hour heads up before my arrival there. Then, the jerks seem to crawl back under their respective rocks. Must be something I did? Can't imagine what it was....Maybe shooting back at the dummies that fired over my son's and my head into the trees?
    I'm easy! After 250+ people, I have spent a great deal of time and even money on to 'recruit", I gave it up!
    I had "plans" this year to move 2 mobile homes up north and each time "something" came up to stop the process. Once just 4 days before the BIG MOVE was to take place. It always does.
    It all staretd out well...but soon I discovered I was on my own had little to NO help at all. Now I am just concerned about either bringing what I have "stored" up north, back to Phoenix. Or I'll have to do something soon....
  14. Suerto

    Suerto Monkey+

    all the work you've put into getting stuff to the property, I would just leave it there..
    you may have all kinds of time in the near future to accomplish all of your plans, as, you will have to LIVE on the property full time..

    with the state of the union..
    something, is better than nothing..
    Cephus likes this.
  15. LogOut

    LogOut Monkey+

    That's the way to do it, IMHO.
  16. beast

    beast backwoodsman

    trailers will just get stripped
    anything you build, shy of a full bunker, will be broken into and emptied
    been there dealt with that
    if its metal itll get cut up
    if its portable it will be hauled off
    if its not concreted down and locked in such a way the lock cant be cut
    consider it gone
    and its only gonna get worse
    Mountainman and dragonfly like this.
  17. dragonfly

    dragonfly Monkey+++

    2 people were caught in the middle of the night, in a Ford pickup converted to a flat bed style....they had a cutting rig set up....they were cutting locks off conex boxes and hauling away all they could hold. They won't be back.
    Then with the new advent of battery operated tools, thieves can cut locks and thru walls in nothing flat today! Dogs are deterrents but they too are easily dealt with. my "former caretaker" spent over $2,000 (trying) to save his full sized Terrier that was poisoned. There were traces of Cyanide and Arsenic. Even after 3 blood transfusions, it was too late. Some will go out of their way to get what they want and that makes OPSEC a mandate that must be adhered to. He has 8 cameras now, and a system that sends a video and alarm to his cell phone and to his email and mine as well, in the case his security is breached. It was NOT cheap. But it's something.
    Gate alarms, dogs, and fencing all are good, but all can be defeated.
    That is why it takes a person to watch and keep an eye on things, even though I prefer to have at least 2-3 dogs as a backup systems...you have to sleep, bathe, and go to the potti sometime! Nohting is perfect. But there are deterrents, some are simple and some are more complicated. Some are alarms and some are serious detereents, such as OC dispensers. Not sure how a moat with gators and such would work!???
  18. beast

    beast backwoodsman

    a good strong fence with a texas longhorn inside :)
  19. CATO

    CATO Monkey+++

    Although I read SB almost daily--mainly for the economics and 'odds & sods' sections, my impression over time has been that so many of the followers have modeled their retreat plan after PATRIOTS, that they have become cult-ish.

    To put this in a more positive way: that blog has a ton of great information, but some of the people posting such an unbending way of organizing retreat groups, that you'd essentially be a slave by joining one. The leader of which, would never allow themselves to be treated like that. Think back in Light's Out about the rich dude who had the retreat that got really mad when Mark refused the offer.

    Additionally, while I usually agree with Rawles on merit/logic, I think some of his posts almost instill a cult-ish mentality. I don't think there's anything wrong with them...but, they definitely have their fanbase.

    (e.g., here are my rules: Precepts of Rawlesian Survivalist Philosophy
    here is where you need to live: SurvivalBlog.com)

    If thousands of people adopt that same philosophy, but in a strict way, I think it's very cultish...no offense to "the Rawles."
  20. OltimeMeMaw

    OltimeMeMaw Monkey+

    middle Texas area??

    My DH and I (sometimes 2 DD's) (college age) are looking for some to join us.
    We live close to Abilene Tx and i work on the AFB. I am new here but hope to have enough post to have PM capabilities soon. I would like to arrange a "meet and greet" in Abilene just to see if personalitys match
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