Firearms and all it entails on a budget

Here in Phoenix, the only .22 ammo I see is Aguila still at $50 a brick.

 

My 2 cents for a budget scenario... You need weapons for two reasons: defense and food.

To start with I'd suggest you forget about pistols. The only serious use for a pistol is as a concealed weapon. Very few people are able to hit even a relatively close target under a stressful situation, and for the price of a pistol you can buy a semiautomatic rifle or shotgun. If I'm shooting at you its to kill and not scare you, so forget the pistol and move on to more effective weapons.

Let's talk about some budget rifles that can keep you safe and fed.

Behind curtain number one is a 12 gauge pump shotgun. Lots of good choices but I'm fond of Mossberg. Slugs will put deer on the table and buckshot will keep asshats at bay.

Behind curtain number two is an SKS or AK-47. The 7.62x39mm round they fire is equivalent to the trusty old .30-30 Winchester and good for both four legged and two legged critters alike. Ammo is almost as cheap as .22LR AND you can find it. Most of it's corrosive and not reloadable.

Behind curtain number three is an AR-15 as prices have dropped to less than $600 for some very decent rifles. For game you will need to make sure you place the bullet in the right spot, but it still works just fine. Ammunition is about twice as expensive as 7.62x39mm, but still not too bad. Better ergonomics than the others and the lighter recoil is more female friendly.

Partner any one of the three above with a Ruger 10/22 for squirrels and other small game and you are in business.

If you must have a bolt action precision gun on a budget look for a Savage or Ruger American with a fixed power SWFA Super Sniper scope, an inexpensive battle proven scope with top tier glass for just a few hundred bux.

Iron sights on the main guns, and an inexpensive scope on the 10/22 will keep costs down and still work well. Save the money for mags, ammo, hearing protection and cleaning supplies.

Remember, this is the budget version, and one main weapon per person plus one 10/22 minimum for a small group.

Ideally a team would be 3-4 AR-15's supplemented by an AR-10 (or other battle rifle) and a Mossberg 590. Bolt action hunting rifles would be game getters doubling as sniper rifles.

 

The AR is a more accurate platform than the AK. Due to the price dropping, often, a good AR costs less than an AK.

Dots and holographic sights offer advantages over iron sights. However, if the dot is large, it covers more of a paper target. As some sights are affected if one has astigmatism, try before buying.

Same as most combat veterans, I have tinnitus. Hearing protection is both vital, common sense and usually required at the range; however, not combat.

 

I was in a shop the other week and saw the opposite. The AK's were cheaper which I found odd. I would have thought it would be as you said. I wondered if maybe the AR were more expensive because they seem to be the trend. It seems that AR's are the ones that the news vilifies the most thus people are buying up, making a higher demand. That may not be true but that is what I thought.

 

He did say "often"...the norm is still for AK clones to be lower cost, but that is changing some depending on the source.

 

Your looking in the wrong place Chief. Call me and I will give you the inside scoop.

 

Here is a good solid choice for that long range reach out and touch someone without breaking the bank.
The Howa bolt gun in 308Win(ad from yesterdays Sunday paper from Big 5 Sporting Goods.

To set up a REM 700 like this will push the price well over $1000 and can climb to over $2000 depending on the glass, stock and trigger.

 

There are a few types of AKs, some are parts guns or assembled from used parts with a US receiver. Kalashnikov-USA and others are more expensive.

It depends on which AR they had on display, a PSA (Palmetto State Armory) and others cost less; Adams, Barnes, Colt and Daniel Defense cost more. Those are just names, I threw out.
The pricey AR rifles come equipped with Magpul furniture, Geissele triggers, Nickel Boron treated bolts etc. It is all opinion and pocketbook; not "how much is your life worth."
A key point is based on the difference of doctrines, the aimed fire of the "West" vs. spray fire of the "East"; the AR is more accurate than the AK. The integrated rail of the AR is a plus for accuracy.
The 5.56 from an 18" or 20" barrel has ~30-50 meter terminal ballistics advantage.

In the early years, due to government stupidity, the M-16 jammed. However, the 1st model AK had its problems also; as a result the Russians changed from a stamped receiver to a milled one. I believe it was 1957 when they went back to the stamped receiver. The difference is everyone knows about the M16's dirty laundry as compared to the AK's.

This can easily go on and on...

BTW, I seriously doubt the AR will ever catch up to the AK in the vilification category.

 

I lost everything back around the turn of the century, including all of my firearms, ammo, accessories and reloading equipment. Here is how I rebuilt on a low budget. Note that I added to my ammo and accessories for each firearm over time, as I could and traded up whenever an opportunity presented itself.

1. 12 gauge shotgun. In my case it was a used Winchester 1200 Defender and some boxes of various ammo including buckshot, slugs and #6 shot.

2. Handgun. In my case a used 1911 .45 ACP with a couple of extra mags, a box of 230gr FMJ and a box of premium hollowpoints.

3. .22 rifle. In my case an inexpensive Marlin Model 60 and a brick of Remington Golden Bullets.

4. Hunting rifle. In my case a used Remington 700 BDL in .270 and a couple of boxes of Winchester Power Points.

5. Semi-auto rifle. In my case an M&M M10 AK47 clone with 100 rounds of cheap Wolf 7.62x39.

6. Trade up or add to your firearm collection as desired...and continue to stack and expand your ammo and accessories

7. If you do a lot of shooting, consider investing in reloading equipment.

Throughout it all, train, train and train until you are tired of training...then train some more.

I should mention that I traded up on all but the .22 and the AK clone...but then we had a freak flash flood when my well pump got stuck on and everything I owned got washed down the creek, never to be found again..we figure it's washed halfway to New Orleans by now. All I have left is my semi-auto rubber band gun and my finger.

 

I use these...using the green passive side both indoors and outdoors. I've seen way too many people get disoriented by the noise level when the shots are for real and they've never trained with that kind of noise level. These are not a perfect solution, but I think they're a good compromise between a minimal level of protection and a minimal level of exposure to actual real-world noise conditions. They fit much better into a cargo pocket or EDC bag than muffs too.



3M Peltor Combat Arms Earplugs - Hearing Protection - Amazon.com

 

True and the two way range is very different than the one way, for sure. As you know, an ambush disorients as well as kills. I did some OPFOR exercises with OCS. Even when they expected to be ambushed the blanks and simulators disoriented them. Probably why they came up with the flash bang.

In field conditions getting one's ears popped from concussion is bad enough, followed by the usual infections makes it even worse.

I have a set of Peltor amplified muffs. As I can hear the range officer and not hear the rifles, they are really nice. Same as all muffs; when shooting 50s; ear plugs and muffs.
I just checked the price and I'm glad mine are 15 years old, LOL.

 

I have a set lf Dillon electronics and a Howard Lieght for me. i have a set of Peltor Electronic for the wife.

I also have several sets of these I get for free every year at AUSA annual convention in DC.
3M Combat Arms Generation 4 Tactical Military Shooter's Ear Plugs

They are used under the other electronics muffs when big noises or when I am shooting my Browning Citori White Lighting for sporting clays i use these alone cuz the cans get in the way.

If you can find these chexk em out
3M Combat Arms Generation 4 Tactical Military Shooter's Ear Plugs (NRR 7/23) - Consumer Packaged Reusable Ear Plugs

 

I've been reading through all of this, and the Good Lord knows how many of these threads I've seen over the past 15 years. I'm down here in my secret underground shamanic reloading cave, enjoying my Christmas coffee. Behind me are the racks of deer rifles, recently back from the hunt, their bores stewing in Ed's Red.

Depth vs. Breadth: There's the quandary. A man has only so much he can spend on firearms. Does he buy 10 30-06's or 1 30-06 and 9 of something else? There is something to be said for both strategies. I spent the first two decades of my shooting career with just that-- 30-06. I had several rifles in it, but they were all set up differently . I had a semi-auto deer rifle shooting 180 grainers, and a bolt gun shooting 30-06 Accelerators at the groundhogs. I had all 12 GA shotguns, but multiple barrels for each. Eventually I branched out, but the fact that I had only a few chamberings to feed made it easy to keep them fed with ammo.

The truth is really as Jeff Cooper popularized:

"There ain't many troubles that a man can't fix with seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six."

As my collection grew so did its breadth. The point here is that you just do not know what the Good Lord is going to hand you. You need to keep your options open. Go to Walmart. See what they are stocking on the shelves and use that as a guide. Stop thinking about that 7.62×25mm Tokarev; not even God will be able to find ammo for it!

Reloading: See, this is where I think most survival primates fall short. I've been reloading for 15 years. As of this moment, I'm probably loading for (the shaman removes his socks so he can count) about 2-dozen rifle and pistol chamberings. As I said, you never know what the Good Lord intends for you to have, and you can keep your options open if you are storing components instead of loaded ammo. I've expanded on that idea in the past year and started casting bullets. A 1lb ingot of lead has infinite possibilities.

Gunsmithing: Gunsmiths are getting hard to come by. Good gunsmiths are even harder to find. Whatever you have, figure that it will break. Be ready to fix it yourself or put it aside until a smith can be found. I was out of work for 2 years, and it put a serious crimp in my budget. When I got flush again, I started digging for a gunsmith for the backlog of jobs that needed done. The first smith butchered two pieces, and I nearly did not get them back before he got thrown in jail. The one I have now is good, but his talents are not limitless. Learn to do simple jobs yourself.

Staying Open: When I started putting this all together, I had no clue. However, if memory serves, I think by the second anniversary of my collection I had 1 30-06 semi-auto deer rifle, 1 12 GA shotgun and 1 22 rifle. Stay away from the fringes. Keep to the center of the road and build with what comes your way at a bargain.

Definite must haves: 22 LR , 12 GA, 308 WIN or 30-06, 7.62X39, 357 Mag, 45 ACP, 9mm
Nice to haves: 223 REM, 7.62X54R, 20 GA, 30-30 Win
Forget: .410 , 16 GA, anything else with "Magnum" in its name, and anything you have to look up in Wikipedia

I'm willing to negotiate these. .223 REM might be worthy of going up a notch, but I figure if I can't blow it away with 12 GA , I'm grabbing something big. 357 Mag is in the must haves, because I now see what it can do in a lever carbine. I only put 9mm and 7.62X39 in the must-haves because the ammunition is ubiquitous. My preferred carry pistol is 45 ACP.

7.62X54R -- Buy some Mosin Nagants, a supply of ammo, and some PVC pipe. Start digging.

In a shotgun, anything besides 12 and 20 GA is useless. .410 is too expensive. 16 GA is getting rare to find. 12 and 20 have about equal availability and equal cost.

 

Nice to see you back, @shaman

 

I've been here, but I've been mostly in lurk mode. I've been involved in some rather large projects at work, and then of course you had the high holidays of deer season.

It's funny, now that I think of it. I've been online, discussing what later became known as prepping clear back to Reagan's first term. There are reloaders, and there are bullet casters, and there are preppers. Most preppers never talk about reloading or casting, only ways to stockpile factory ammo. I reload and I cast, but only recently did I think of it in terms survival. In fact, what pushed me over the edge into reloading was going to the store for some 30-06 many years ago and finding the stuff had gone from $8 to $12 a box now it's $28. Bullet casting for rifles and pistols was probably inspired by this place to some degree. However, the main impetus was the various component shortages that Obama has caused. I found myself nearly out of my favorite 35 cal deer bullet and started thinking out of the box.

As I was later to find, if you seriously want to talk reloading and casting as it relates to survival, .358 is the way to go. I do not recommend 35 Whelen as a starting place-- that's where I got started. However, you have several other rifle chamberings in 35-- .358 WIN, 35 REM come to mind. Then you have 357 Mag and .38 SPL in pistol calibers, and they all can be loaded with the same molds. Lee Precision makes aluminum molds that are easy for a beginner to use. Scrap lead is something you can bury.

I'm branching out now and trying to cover as many of my firearms with a minimum number of molds. The basic thing you have to remember when you're getting into this is that a bullet caster trades bullet size for velocity. You generally cannot drive cast lead too fast or else it melts in the barrel. Therefore, to keep up hitting power, you increase bullet size, or you put up with the reduction.
Case in point is my 35 Whelen. I picked a 200 grain mold to approximate what I had been doing with jacketed bullets. By the time I had gotten done, my "Whelenizer" had been reduced to the velocities of a 35 Remington. That was okay for my purposes. I stopped there, satisfied that I could put a reasonable group into a target at 100 yards with a round that would take a deer. You can check out my weblog for the details.

With 35 cal, a prepper has a good mix of a lot of things. At .35" you have enough weight in the bullets for getting serious work done. A 44 or 45 cal bullet can get it done, but it uses a lot more lead and a lot more powder to do the same amount of work. Below .35 you start getting into more and more complexities, and I hear .223 is devilishly hard to pull off. Plinking? Yes, but we're talking business more serious than that. A Marlin 1894 loaded with 9 rounds of 158 grainers is not an AK 47 or even an SKS, but I can probably load many times the ammo for the same expenditure of material and cost.

Anyhow, now that I've been to the bullet casting mountain and bought the coffee mug and T-Shirt, my advice for monkeys getting started on the firearms path is to think about reloading and casting at some point in the future:

1) 35 cal, although it hardly gets mentioned in prepping material is your huckleberry if you want to some day reload and cast.
2) Save every round of brass you can. Steel-cased ammo cannot be reloaded. Berdan primed ammo cannot be reloaded. Rimfire ammo cannot be reloaded. You want brass, boxer primed cases for reloading.
3) Start collecting lead. Collect pure lead and lead mixed with Antimony and tin. Pewter is also good stuff. Lead with zinc sucks. It screws up everything. Learn what's what and start hoarding it.

One other thought and then I'll leave you: If your bug-out cabin is way out in the boonies you may be able to hunt, at least for a while. However, I have had recent experience that leads me to believe hunting for food is a fantasy. It might have been someone here, but recently I read an account of what life was like in West Virginia in The Depression. The fellow said you could walk through the woods and be only living thing out there-- no game, no chipmunks, no songbirds even. The reason I bring this up is that we have recently had a situation at the farm that resolved itself. Some low-life neighbors got evicted from an adjoining property and the landowner had their shack bulldozed down the hill. We realize in their absence that they were probably hunting for sustenance. It took 2 years, but just now the deer, turkeys and other stuff is starting to return. My point is that it does not take much human hunting to completely extirpate the game. Therefore, be thinking of wholly bidpedal targets.

 

Oh, I am thinking of bullet casting, @shaman . only thing I still lack is the bullet mold itself, and the powder .Casting bullets for muzzleloader | Survival Forums

 

Based on what they are hunting, hunters use a few types firearms; small game, big game, and for flying game.

Defense of a fixed position, aka where all your preps are located, usually requires force equalizers.

Same as we have boots, dress shoes, sneakers and more; there really isn't a one gun fits all needs.

 

Or hand tools. While a hammer is quite useful, and can even drive screws, if forced to, it makes a terrible paint brush.

 

Very true and why I have rifles in several different cartridges and actions. The same is true for the number and styles of fishing poles.

For a budget arsenal you have to make choices due to cost constraints and need to make sure you are getting the most bang for the buck. Another factor is how many people are using this arsenal, and this is were force multipliers can really come into play. With a small group some can be outfitted with AK's or AR's and a few could be using something more powerful and with longer range. I don't think there are any one size fits all solutions, and each has to take into account the people and the environment.

 

Same here; I grew up with hunting, firearms, reloading and competitive shooting. I enjoyed the shooting sports since I was a kid.
Light weapons NCO in the Army. Quite familiar with real world reconnaissance, small unit and irregular applications. Applications are where most come up short in experience and knowledge.

Ditto with fishing; only now I don't get to fish salt water as much as I did as we live 6+ hours from the coast. Mostly trout, large mouth bass, walleye etc. Even have a couple of old fiberglass fly poles with light open face reels for panfish.

Agreed. However, as money is dear be sure of what one is buying.