Firearms as a system

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by phishi, Jul 11, 2013.

  1. phishi

    phishi Psy-Ops Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I've been chewing on some ideas I've had for awhile now, one of which is a firearm system.

    The concept behind this idea is that every time you shoot, you are creating muscle memory. Do it long enough, and you could work your safety without looking or reload without taking your eyes off your target. If someone was to hand you a new firearm however, the first few times you were to use it, you probably would be at least slower, if not unable to work the safety or reload without visualizing the action.

    At cross grain to this idea is the thought that no caliber is a silver bullet. Rather each caliber is a tool in your tool box or club in your golf bag. Selecting the right one for the job is open to a debate that I don't want to get into here. Lets all agree that each caliber has an appropriate use and going beyond that might mean that one should step up a caliber, or even down as the case may be.

    So how does one get around this? If I,for instance,need to go up a caliber, that often means a different firearm is going to have to be used. One that may have different ergonomics, or possibly even a different action. The feel is going to be different, the safety might be in a new spot, and reloading could be the opposite of what I am used to doing. In other words, the first concept is at odds with the second, unless we are purposeful in our weapon selections.

    Keeping the actions similar is a good start. Marlin for instance offers multiple lever actions in calibers from .22lr to 45-70 and beyond. One could use a .22lr for small game, pair a .357 mag with a revolver of the same caliber for home defense, and use a .35 Remington for larger game for instance. The rifles would be different in size and even in reloading, but would be similar enough that one could probably overcome the problem as presented above. I believe Savage offers a similar option if bolt action is more your style.

    Taking it further, one could do a similar thing using multiple companies that produce a similar platform. The AR15 style weapon system is one of the first ones that comes to mind. A pistol caliber upper could be used in conjunction with an insert and a standard lower. Add in the upper that it replaced, possibly another in 6.8 or 300 blackout, and a version of a .22lr conversion kit and you have a multi caliber weapon based on a single lower. Or you could by multiple ARs in each of the calibers mentioned above. Cost does enter in here at some point. To take it further, one could also purchase an AR10 style rifle in .308. This would offer greater range in a package that offers the same muscle memory that you have already gained from using the AR15 platform.

    If the AR platform is not your style, another similar option could be cobbled together using M1 carbines, Ruger 10/22s and Mini 14s, and some commercial variant of the M14. I believe that the charging handle for each is on the right side of the weapon and that, with the exception of the 10/22, one needs to use a rocker action to seat each mag. Again muscle memory is consistent and the ability to change between each caliber in your tool box should be easier to do.

    Glocks, S&W M&P, and 1911 style pistols come to mind for pistols. Each are available in multiple calibers and .22lr conversion kits are often available. For revolvers, Ruger and S&W offer multiple calibers with a .22 option on a similar sized frame. The ultimate might be the Thompson Center series of firearms, ones that offer multiple options for calibers in both pistol and rifle configurations that fit the same frame. I am sure ther are other options that I am not aware of.

    Might be something to consider as each of us looks to increase not only our firearm collections, but also our abilities to use them successfully. Just some of my thoughts.
    JABECmfg and Sapper John like this.
  2. tacmotusn

    tacmotusn RIP 1/13/21

    Or, Remington tube fed pump 22lr, tube magazine fed 12ga pump, and slightly different (pick your centerfire rifle caliber) pump action rifle (box mag feed, however).
    The whole idea about the system for speed and muscle memory makes plenty of sense!
  3. Mortblanc

    Mortblanc Monkey

    A "system" sounds good but is not something one should adhere too with devotion.

    Most of the best long range rifles are going to be of bolt action persuasion.
    Most of the best defense rifles are going to be simiauto.
    Most of the best shotgun choices are going to be pumps.
    Most of the best SURVIVAL/FIELD (not necessarily combat) pistols will be revolvers

    Where's the system there?

    Top that with the fact that what one can afford might not fit into the "system".

    Better to tailor the gun to the job than to attempt forcing life to adhere to the "system" you prefer.

    While a simiauto shotgun might be flawless when fed good ammo and maintained precisely, I still want my pump for its reliability during difficult times, as do many others.

    I can get by with a bolt gun for hunting and a .22 matching it might be acceptable, but I sure do not want a bolt action shotgun for guarding the homestead.

    Handgun choice is a very individual thing and I do not intend to get into the auto/revolver spat. Suffice it to say that I carry both types depending on my circumstance, mood and the weather!

    If revolver do you stick to only 5 shot/6shot/7,8,9shot cylinders?

    Are your pistols all DAO, single action or DA/SA?

    Is every safety in the same spot? How about the slide lock release? Do they all have a slide lock release?

    Is a conversion the answer? What happens when you need both calibers at the same time, or the other caliber instead of what is installed, or just wish you had the extra gun to hand to someone that could help, even if it is a .22.

    Sometimes "muscle memory" just won't cover everything and you have to turn your brain on.
  4. VisuTrac

    VisuTrac Ваша мать носит военные ботинки Site Supporter+++

    There was a nice article written up in March-April 2013 Backwoodsman regarding the Handi-Rifle.

    One platform (granted it's a single shot) offering multiple barrels. Rifle and Pistol loadings and Shotguns.
    3.5" 12 gauge down to 22 hornet.

    here is another review.
    Gun Review of the H&R Handi-Rifle for Hunting - Yahoo! Voices -

    this is just for reference as a multiple caliber weapon system that has the same manual of arms or operating procedure.
  5. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    I would suggest simply training with the weapons you have. Learn them until you are sure of them and yourself.
    I do not share your disdain for bolt action guns. My Mossberg 12ga. Bolt action is the best small game and bird gun I have ever had the privilege to use. It is nearly as fast as a pump, and does exactly what I tell it to. I out-shoot several good hunters both in accuracy and range on a regular basis.
    Brokor likes this.
  6. phishi

    phishi Psy-Ops Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I don't agree that bolt guns are inherently more accurate than semi autos in long range shooting. I believe it depends on the type of bolt gun vs. the type of semi auto. Examples of each can be found.

    I do agree that for the most part, a semi auto rifle is the best choice for a defensive long arm. Unless that is not an option due to lack of having one available.

    I don't agree that a pump shotgun is the best choice. It can be short stroked under stress by the best trained out there.

    I don't agree that a revolver is the best, I believe it comes down to what caliber you wish to carry. If its not available in a reliable semi auto platform, then a revolver may be for you, but to make a blanket statement like the others does not take into account other factors.

    The system is not perfect. Cost does enter into the equation. What I am attempting to do is to make people think before they just go out and purchase the newest wiz bang on the market thinking that it will address their issues. It may well do that, but it also may not. I have seen plenty of collections, including some of my earlier purchases that I believed would make me faster, better, stronger, able to leap large buildings in a single bound. I have come to conclude that while this is a compromise, it is one I can live with. As my collection ebbs and flows, I believe I will be stream lining it towards a firearm system that will revolve around semi auto rifles and semi auto pistols. I don't believe I will be giving up anything in terms of long range accuracy by doing this, nor caliber selection of either long arm or pistol.

    As for shotgun, I don't shoot it well, and outside of hunting, do not think I will own many. I do not feel I am giving up anything defensively in this regard. I think that what I am doing both creates a system and tailors it to fit my needs.

    As for revolvers, the size of the cylinder does not matter so much, in my opinion, as does the grip and barrel length. It would help if they where made by the same company and that the cylinder release was in the same spot.

    I'm a fan of Glocks, so your question of Dao vs Da/Sa is mute in my case. The same with safety, it is in the same place. The same however could be said of many other firearm companies. Sig, Berretta, Browning, and a lot of 1911 companies make multi caliber firearms that have the controls in the same spot on each. Pick a platform and drive on.

    I find that I use my conversion kit to train with due to the current cost of ammo. I believe that for me it is the answer. I am working towards having one for each of the firearms in my system. Yes this is a lot of money, but I feel it will be well spent when I can pass what I view as a complete system to my children. Besides, it keeps me off the streets and gets me to bed at a reasonable hour.

    I believe that muscle memory is a result of your training, and that under stress you resort to what your muscles are familiar with. Meaning that you can't turn your brain on fast enough to solve the problem of having a different firearm in your hands than the one you last worked with.

    Beware the man with only one firearm (system), he may know how to use it.
    Yard Dart, kellory and VisuTrac like this.
  1. 3M-TA3
  2. Dunerunner
  3. Dunerunner
  4. Matei
  5. Yard Dart
  6. Yard Dart
  7. hot diggity
  8. Coyote Ridge
  9. Oddcaliber
  10. Coyote Ridge
  11. Dont
  12. oil pan 4
  13. Oddcaliber
  14. Yard Dart
  15. Marvin L. Steinhagen
  16. Ura-Ki
  17. Ura-Ki
  18. Witch Doctor 01
  19. Big Ron
survivalmonkey SSL seal warrant canary