First HF antenna...

Discussion in 'Survival Communications' started by Bandit99, Nov 25, 2017.


Tags:
  1. 3M-TA3

    3M-TA3 Cold Wet Monkey

    No, but I thought I saw 50 ohm there previously in the RF section. I bought 75 Ohm a few years back to go from my coax Internet hand off to my modem. You might want to give them a call at (206) 284-2924 and ask. The cable I ordered was delivered in 48 hours.
     
  2. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    Making Coax Cables is not all that tough a job... For Vhf/Uhf runs longer than 20’ I use Beldon 9913 Coax up to 150’... If longer than that I go to Hardline Coax starting with 1/2 “... Pl-259s are very easy to install on 9913, and Amp makes some really nice N Connectors for it as well... Yes it cost a bit more than the RG8 type Coax, but the attenuation Specs make the price worth it... For HF, at less than. the 500 Watt PEP Power Level, RG58U is fine, up to 100’ .. If you plan on more than 500 Watts, go up to 9913... I still have 800’ of it left over from the Alaska Bush People Job, along with a bunch or Premium Connectors, both PL-259s that have Teflon Insulation, and Very nice N Connectors... I used 9913 for short runs, less than 30’, clear up to 2,4 Ghz Wifi Antenna Systems, and up to 75’ for 4G LTE Antenna Systems... Never had an issue, with this, in 30 Years, even in Alaska Winters...
     
    3M-TA3 likes this.
  3. AD1

    AD1 Monkey+++

    Price on the 7300 went up $100 today
     
  4. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    @BTPost "What i did was Installed a 2” PVC Pipe..."
    LOL! That was exactly what I was thinking of doing - exactly - even down to filling the pipe with self-sealing foam. LOL! Like you, I know I will be running more cables for something...definitely for a VHF/UHF antenna so need to plan accordingly...

    @3M-TA3 "...review of the IC-7300...Also for the FT-991A..."
    Dammit, I thought I had my mind finally made up! LOL! Yaesu is renown for making great radios and it's all-band also...hmmm, more research needed after all...
     
    AD1 and 3M-TA3 like this.
  5. 3M-TA3

    3M-TA3 Cold Wet Monkey

    Looking at the videos and the specs I lean towards the Yaesu, but you can’t really tell until you try them hands on. Fortunately I have a Ham Radio Outlet nearby and will have funds near Christmas, so I’ll be dropping by soon to fiddle with them.

    I don't think you could go wrong with either.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2017
    AD1 likes this.
  6. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Just to add to the analysis paralysis, have a squint at a TS480. More compact than a desktop radio, and can go into your vehicle readily when you are ready to go mobile.

    Rather more than a short while ago, my father told me that once you make up your mind to buy a car, go sit in one and see how you like it. But, said he, if you can't find a dealer for one more brand to look at, throw a dart at the phone book and buy the one the dart picks for you. When it comes to hamming, if your wallet can stand the hit, you can stand to buy and try. Hams will happily relieve you of the one you don't like, and some choices cannot be made rationally with deep, thoughtful analysis.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2017
    Bandit99 and 3M-TA3 like this.
  7. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    Do tell us either via PM or a thread on what you 'hear' and 'see' when you make your visit to the Ham Radio outlet. Frankly, there are pros to both sides and it's a coin toss. The IC-7300 has that 'RF Direct Sampling' which I think we will see more and more radios go to in the near future but the FT-991A is multi-band which would be handy as hell.

    @ghrit "Just to add to the analysis paralysis, have a squint at a TS480."
    My goodness, ghrit! Is my affliction that obvious!? LOL!! Or, perhaps there is more to it, hmmm? Me thinks you have a technical side also and have suffered the dreaded 'analysis paralysis' demon yourself! AH-HA! LOL!
    On serious note, the TS480 is and has been on my list for quite a while. Currently, I am not ready for mobile ops as focused is on getting a base station up by Spring then we shall expand. I like the fact that the TS480 has an internal antenna tuner which would save space in car and it does CB channels also which could come in handy.
     
    3M-TA3 likes this.
  8. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    I stewed for a year after I got my tech ticket before I pulled the trigger on the 480. Yep, I have suffered with that a/p affliction.

    Unless it's an added feature in the last couple years, probably not true. Uv cuss, you can listen to the mutha truckahs, but you can't banter back. The one thing I wish the 480 has is 2M and 70cm capability. If it did, it would already be in the pickup.. Had to get a two band unit for mobile. At some point, I may have to piggyback a CB set on the 2M rig.
     
  9. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    Ok, This is NOT Strictly Legal under FCC Part 95, however ALL the Kenwood HF Radios, including the TS-480 series Radios, have. simple MOD, (remove one resistor on the Control Board) that opens the Transmit capability from 1.7 - 30 Mhz and 49 - 54 Mhz.. which does include the CB Channels... If one does this MOD, then one is liable for any non-legal Out of Ham Band transmitting...
     
    AD1 and 3M-TA3 like this.
  10. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Yeah, but that has always annoyed me. Now, if an unlicensed operator has a "normal" ham radio modified for an unlicensed service like CB, and gets caught with it, he's obviously guilty as the regs are written. Granted, the ham rig is not type certified for CB, but that condition was imposed to make life simple for non licensed users AND to keep the license bands clean of spurious rf. Hypothetically, a licensed ham would know to keep his gear appropriately tuned to keep spurious emissions under control, therefore should not be restricted from bands that are open to all others unless he buys an "approved" rig. :mad:

    Ennyweigh, CB is not exactly a recommendation for a first hf skyhook lashup.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2017
    Bandit99 and 3M-TA3 like this.
  11. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    BTPost... I did not know this, thought it could transmit as well as receive, and not sure where I got the info. I probably didn't get the whole story - meaning - that I would use ghrit logic also looking at this scenario, figuring if it could receive than probably could transmit. But, I am curious now... so WHY wouldn't the FCC allow this radio to transmit as well as monitor? Is it simply the power available to the HF radio (I think it's a 100watts) frightens them and they fear it would be too tempting to step-on other traffic to blast through, over modulate...etc.? Doesn't make a lot of sense and just wondering how they justify it, their reasoning. Since we know you were an FCC official I am betting you know the answer.

    Oh! And, is it illegal to mod the radio to achieve the transmit capability? I notice you didn't say it was illegal but "...one is liable for any non-legal Out of Ham Band transmitting."....I mean, if I remember correctly CB is in the 3-30Mhz HF spectrum so...? Please educate me?
     
  12. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    It is NOT illegal to MOD the Radio... What is illegal is to Transmit on Frequecies that REQUIRE FCC Type Acceptance, for that specific Radio Service, and the MODded Radio does NOT have that Type Acceptance. Many Radios that are Type Accepted for Part 90 Services can be used on the Vhf/Uhf Ham Bands, which Require NO Type Aceptance by the FCC... BUT NOT the other way around... It is similar. to the SECURE Phones situation... These are Part 15 Devices and as such are Type Accepted, for that service, and can NOT be legally MODded for a different Antenna or external Power Amp, under Part15... However when used in the 902-928 Mhz Ham Band, a Licensed Ham , can use ANY Antenna, or a Power Amp up to 10 Watts Output, under Part 97... A SEA 222 HF Marine Radio, can be used for Part80, 87, and 90 Licenses, as well as under the Ham Part97... But my Kenwood Radios that are NOT Type Accepted for any of those Radio Services, but can be MODded, for Transmit on those Frequencies, but it would be illegal to transmit, because those Radio Services REQUIRE Type Accepted Radios, which the MODded Radio is NOT......

    Back in the Day, I MODded my Kenwood TS-430 for 1.7 - 30 Mhz Transmit, so I could Use it if needed as a backup Radio for the Marine Coast, Aviation, & Alaska Fixed Station I have here... My Buddy, Bill, (Chief Engineer @ SEA Commincation) borowed it for a few days, and ran the Type Acceptance qualifications on it, for Part 80, 87, and 90, just to see how good it really was... It passes the Technical Specs, with NO Issues, and would have been legal to use if he had paid the FCC Fee, and submitted the Paperwork...
    Just Say’en, Things are not always about the Specs....
     
    3M-TA3, Bandit99 and ghrit like this.
  13. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    CB radios are limited to these frequencies. As can be seen this is NOT a wide spectrum, less than 4Mhz wide, not 3 to 30. From wiki
    Channel Frequency Channel Frequency Channel Frequency Channel Frequency
    1 26.965 MHz 11 27.085 MHz 21 27.215 MHz 31 27.315 MHz
    2 26.975 MHz 12 27.105 MHz 22 27.225 MHz 32 27.325 MHz
    3 26.985 MHz 13 27.115 MHz 23 27.255 MHz 33 27.335 MHz
    4 27.005 MHz 14 27.125 MHz 24 27.235 MHz 34 27.345 MHz
    5 27.015 MHz 15 27.135 MHz 25 27.245 MHz 35 27.355 MHz
    6 27.025 MHz 16 27.155 MHz 26 27.265 MHz 36 27.365 MHz
    7 27.035 MHz 17 27.165 MHz 27 27.275 MHz 37 27.375 MHz
    8 27.055 MHz 18 27.175 MHz 28 27.285 MHz 38 27.385 MHz
    9 27.065 MHz 19 27.185 MHz 29 27.295 MHz 39 27.395 MHz
    10 27.075 MHz 20 27.205 MHz 30 27.305 MHz 40 27.405 MHz

    It's worth noting that the frequency separation between channels is quite narrow, under 10 kHz typically. This is part of the reason that type cert is required. Most ham rigs are not capable, coming out of the factory, of holding that level of precision during transmission (on SSB, anyway, other modes behave differently). Normal SSB practice is to hold 5kHz away from another active station to avoid bleedover or other interference with adjacent operation. Some xceivers are capable of that fine a control, but don't take it to the bank. The general ticket license covers this, if the tech does not.
    Crap. Copy paste did not separate the columns the way I planned. Sorry 'bout that.
     
    BTPost likes this.
  14. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    @BTPost I get it. And, 'FCC Type Acceptance" does make sense in most situations but I would think that this sort of HF radio, (higher quality and class) that to transmit on the CB would be included in the Acceptance testing...especially considering that they are indeed capable of doing so and more likely doing it at a higher precision than most CB radios.

    @ghrit Yes, I know that the CB bands/channels are limited but was speaking in general the HF band is considered 3-30Mhz which the TS480 is definitely capable. And, we know its possible as BTPost as pointed out. However, it is illegal to transmit with a device that has not passed Acceptance Testing even on a Citizen Band...which does make some sense, whether I like it or not, but still think it is strange that this TS480 (or other HF radios) was not tested for CB transmission when the other HF testing took place. It don't make sense. They are limiting the capability of the radio even though I was tested and licensed to ensure I don't screw up the comms spectrum so...? I can understand the CB radio not having the capability to transmit on protected HF bands but don't understand the license user with a better radio not being able to transmit on unprotected (no license needed) bands if the radio is capable. That I don't get.
     
    3M-TA3 likes this.
  15. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    Part of the issue with Type Acceptance is it is a Regulation written back before the Digital Age, Where Frequency Control was done with Quartz Crystals, that kept Transmitters on Channelized Frequencies which are used in most Radio Services... With the invention of Phased Locked Loop technology, and Digital Controls, Frequency Stability can be better than Temperature Controlled Crystals of yesteryear... With Digital Memory, 1000’s of Channels can be store in a single Memory Chip, and still be much more Stable, Frequency. wise, than the only Crystal based radios... Ham Radio, on the other hand, is NOT a Channelized Radio Service, but a Radio Band Limit Service... A ham can transmit on ANY Frequency inside the legal Bandwidth... So. a Ham Radio Operator would have to be very careful with his Frequency Control to be sure he was transmitting on the Channelized Frequency of a Type Accepted Radio Service... With modern Ham Radio designs, this is not. a big problem, as most Ham Radios have 100s to 1000s of Programmable Memory Channels, that can be set up to match these Channelized Frequencies... The reason the Commission, keeps these two seperate is in the Operator Licensing... Most Commercial Operators do not REQUIRE, a License from the FCC... They only REQUIRE a Station License for the Transmitters, and the Operators that use the Radios can NOT adjust the Freqency of each Channem the Radio is on... The only place that REQUIRE an Operators License these days, is a Commercial Ship Station that makes International Voyages, and is over 300 Tons Gross weight, and a Commercial Aircraft, that uses Telegraphy for Comms.. and even these both have 3rd Class, and Restricted Permit Operator Licences, only for Channelized Radios... Only a 1st or General Class Commercial Operator Licensee can adjust Frequency on a Type Accepted Radio System... This distinction, is a holdover Regulation, from an earlyier era... I hold a First Class Radio Operators with both Radar, and Aircraft Endorements, as well as a Advanced Ham Radio License, and made a living working in the Marine, Aviation, and Alaska Communications Field...
     
    Bandit99 and 3M-TA3 like this.
  16. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    3M-TA3 likes this.
  17. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    Oh! I think I understand. You thought I was saying HF is 3Khz-30Mhz? No, I meant it as I wrote it, as is in your ARRL chart, 3-30Mhz (better written 3Mhz-30Mhz). Sorry. Or, am I missing something still?
     
    3M-TA3 likes this.
  18. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    Nope, 3Hz - 30Hz Extremely Low Frequency (ELF)...
    30Hz - 3Khz is Very Low Frequency (VLF)....
    3Khz -300Khz is Low Frequency (LF)...
    300Khz - 3.00Mhz Medium Frequency (MF)
     
    3M-TA3 likes this.
  19. 3M-TA3

    3M-TA3 Cold Wet Monkey

    Agreed - hands on is a must.

    All three are pretty compact units, with the TS-480 being the smallest (dimensions include the face plate). My HF radio will normally be used on a desk, but needs to be mobile on occasion. All of these have mobile mounting brackets. Plenty of room in my truck, so I don't need teeny-tiny. I also plan on APRS capable UHF/VHF radios in two vehicles, so those bands on the HF unit are a bonus, but not necessary.
    upload_2017-11-27_20-36-22.
     
  20. Tempstar

    Tempstar Monkey+++

    Isn't there also a 5 watt limitation on CB power?
    I have a 480HX, 480SAT, and TS-2000. For the shack the TS-2000 wins hands down. The 480SAT is my field radio that lives in a 2U rack case. The 480HX mostly collects dust, as the additional 3db of power isn't a great trade off for the auto tuner. My antenna is a Chameleon Hybrid with 60' of 1/8" stainless cable hanging in a dipole configuration at 30', with #12 THHN wire for the 75' of counterpoise. It tunes 160-6 (minus 17 meters for some reason) though the power out may be in single digits on 160. I routinely participate in a rag chew net on 80 with great reports. If working SSB will be your thing, get a new mic whatever radio you choose. I run a Shure 565 on a cheap boom in the shack and the signal reports were different as night and day when I made the change. Getting the audio into the radio makes a huge difference on SSB.
    One last double plug, the TS-2000 also does VHF-UHF and does the VHF at up to 100 watts, 50 on UHF. The Chameleon antenna is a well made and long lasting compromise antenna, but does not work as well as the 20-40-80 fan dipole I made. There is no comparison between a compromise antenna and a tuned wire, but the chameleon comes as close as anything I have tried and gets more bands per buck.
    I have posted here in the past that I have owned various Yeasu and Icom radios and spent a small fortune in my pursuit of the best (for me) radio and antenna system. I don't do fancy, but rather like simple and functional. A manual tuner does a little bit better job, but I like the push button simplicity of an autotuner, and like it inside the radio. Even better is a tuned antenna that does not need a tuner. I'll also mention my SEA 1612 tuner. It tunes on an RF signal and is a great piece of gear for the 480HX but only handles 150 watts (the standard for marine SSB radios).
    Do exhaustive research and more importantly talk to hams about what they use. I could have a new F-250 Diesel for what I have spent on radios and antennas over the years, only to end up back with my Kenwoods. My first was a TS-690s and is packed away in an ammo can. I kept pursuing a "better" radio yet kept selling off the latest and greatest and firing up the 690 again. Finally found one I liked better in the TS-2000, but the 690 will always have a home here.
    Good luck in your search, hope this helps save you some cash and headaches!
     
    BTPost, Bandit99 and 3M-TA3 like this.
survivalmonkey SSL seal        survivalmonkey.com warrant canary
17282WuJHksJ9798f34razfKbPATqTq9E7