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Five seveN Anyone?

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by CraftyMofo, Jan 31, 2008.

  1. CraftyMofo

    CraftyMofo Monkey+++

    Does anyone have an opinion on the FN FiveSeven?


    I'm starting to plan this year's purchases, and I think this could be an interesting start....I can't seem to find brass for it anywhere.
  2. magnus392

    magnus392 Field Marshall Mags Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    If you could get the mil grade ammo I would be all over it. But the watered down crap they will let us import isn't that impressive, it won't do what the cartridge is sold to do.
  3. hartage

    hartage Monkey+++

    Roll your own ? might be cheaper in the long run too.
  4. CraftyMofo

    CraftyMofo Monkey+++

    I WAS looking at .45s, either Glock, Springfield XD, and of course that Kimber that I've always liked that a buddy owns....

    As I see it, here are the pluses and minuses:
    -Unique round with interesting capabilities
    -Possibility of heavy appreciation with a ban
    -Possible reuse of reloading components (I believe it uses .224 bullets)
    -Lower recoil than a 9 mm

    -Difficulty in finding reloading components
    -Relatively scarce loaded ammo available

    Originally, I wanted the .45 for more "punch", but if this can provide stopping power in a lightly recoiling package, why put up with the recoil?
  5. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    Another Plus:

    Penetration on "lightly armored" ZOMBIES.
  6. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

  7. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

  8. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

    ere is some info from FiveSeven forum.

    "- The Lima, Peru siege (known as Chavin de Huantar, see here for some more info on the operation itself) occurred in 1997 when a number of terrorists took over the Japanese embassy in Peru. The Peruvian CTs were carrying suppressed P90s. In the siege, two terrorists were killed with one 5.7 round each, and a third with two rounds. All of these subjects were wearing Level IIIA vests. One of the terrorists killed with one round was the leader of the group who died instantly upon being shot. The SS190 was the round used in this incident. The SB193 subsonic was not (to my knowledge) introduced until 1999.

    - Grand Forks, North Dakota SWAT had a shooting (the first ever with 5.7x28 in the US) with their P90s in 2000 that resulted in a near-instant fatality. Unfortunately, those are the only details from the shooting that I have been able to find.

    - The shooting in Texas was the Houston, Texas SWAT team; it occurred in spring of 2003. A subject wearing heavy clothing was firing at HPD with an AR15, and he was hit with a burst from the P90, dying (by all accounts) instantly. Supposedly "the coroner remarked he had never seen a wound like it". These are comments on the incident from people from or in contact with HPD. Here are some comments on the shooting from Sandy Wall of Houston PD: "The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets. None of the 5.7mm rounds fragmented and as far as we can tell, none exited either."

    - Birmingham, Alabama SWAT had a shooting in mid-2004 with the P90. Here is a news article on this one with a bit of info on the situation.

    - Doraville, Georgia PD had a shooting with the SS190 (most likely from the Five-seveN pistol, although Doraville does use the P90), resulting in a fatality from a neck shot. The subject's spine was severed but the round did not exit his neck. Another shooting, with Duluth, Georgia PD resulted in the subject being struck in the head with an SS190 out of a Five-seveN. It is true that both of these cases involved outstanding shot placement. However, it might be worth noting firstly that the rounds did not exit in either of these cases, and yet they did seem to do the job as well or better than other pistol calibers would have. Secondly, this outstanding shot placement could easily be attributed to the very low recoil and shootability of the 5.7x28 weapons.

    - Sioux Falls, South Dakota SWAT shot a subject "in the hand and arm through a solid core door". He lost two fingers off his gun hand and the bone in his arm was shattered. After passing through the door, the round began to go into tumble and struck his arm flat, powdering the bone within. AFAIK this was the first shooting with 5.7x28 where the victim survived.

    - I am also aware of a security firm working in Iraq that issues both the P90 and Five-seveN, and has shot multiple subjects with them. To quote a first-hand witness: "I have seen 5 people who were shot by the 5.7, all by some KBR security guys in Iraq. Three by P90, and two mixed P90, 5.7, and M4. All were DRT, going down almost instantly from the hits, and bleeding out right there."

    - Here is a post over on another forum with an account from Iraq. It could be considered a bit shaky but I will hold back no info on the subject.

    - Jacksonville, FL SWAT has been using the P90 for several years now and to date has shot three subjects with it. According to statements made by one Jacksonville officer, these subjects were shot several times; some may attempt to use these case(s) against the 5.7x28, but we still don't know the hit locations in any of these shootings.

    - I am aware of another recent (fatal) case in Austin, TX where a man was shot once in the heart (bullet entered above the right nipple and exited under the left shoulder blade) with a civilian round (of unknown type, possibly SS197) out of the Five-seveN pistol. A first-hand witness described the wound cavity damage as minimal; coupled with the claim that this round exited the body (this is the first case I'm aware of where a 5.7x28 round exited the torso of the victim) and "blew a heck of a divot from the concrete wall [behind the victim]", I'm assuming this was an SS195/SS197 that kept going and possibly failed to expand/yaw. Regardless, the bullet still got the job done, demonstrating once again that shot placement is everything.

    Those are most of the shooting details I have. The others are too vague to draw much from. I do know that a PD in South Carolina (not sure specifically which department, as there are several PDs in SC using the P90) has shot multiple BGs with it. I wouldn't say there have been enough shootings to date to conclusively prove that the 5.7x28 is adequate, but the shootings we're aware of certainly give more likelihood/probability that the round will turn out. This thread might also interest you -- it contains a list of US agencies using the P90 and/or Five-seveN."

    "- Firstly, of the Houston SWAT shooting it is often claimed that Sandy Wall works or has worked for FNH USA. This is false. Secondly, it is claimed that since this shooting involved 5.56 rounds also hitting the subject, it isn't a legitimate case for the 5.7x28mm. However, not only did the article author state that "The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets" and then "In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well", but it has also been stated elsewhere that the 5.56 rounds impacted IIRC on the hands/arms of the subject.

    - The Jacksonville, FL shooting(s) are often severely represented. Some 5.7 opponents even go so far as to claim that the incident involved "all 50 rounds into the BG" and that the victim(s) merely reacting by "asking the officers to stop shooting them". Not only do statements from Jacksonville PD indicate that none of these subjects survived, but no one from or in contact with Jacksonville PD has given details on where or exactly how many times the subjects in these shootings were hit.

    - I'm aware of another incident in 2002 where a 5.7 round ricocheted and struck a Duluth, GA police officer in the hip, injuring her. Some try to cite this as a case where the round 'failed to stop'. "

    Bellevue, NE SWAT killed a pit bull in 2003 during a drug raid; it was shot with two rounds of SS190 out of a Five-seveN pistol. I know of five deer being killed by one of our members with a Five-seveN, none of them taking more than one round. One of our members has used his Five-seveN to kill small/medium-sized hogs (see that thread here) as well as another member that has used his Five-seveN with handloads on badger, fox, deer and rabbits (see that here) with good results. All of these cases were with civilian ammunition or handloads, except for the Belleview, NE incident.

    Keep in mind, these cases were the performance of the rounds out of the shorter pistol barrel, out of the P90's 10-inch barrel, or the PS90's 16-inch barrel, performance will be even better. Between the Five-seveN and P90, there is a velocity difference of about 200 fps. SS190 averages about 2100 fps out of the Five-seveN, and 2350 fps out of the P90. The PS90 (civilian version of the P90) gives about a solid 225 fps increase over the standard P90, meaning it will give about 2600 fps with the better ammo types -- SS190, SS192, SS195.

    Also, for any worried that SS192/SS195 performance will not parallel SS190 performance, please note that the tissue damage and penetration of the two in testing is virtually equal. Both yaw with no expansion or fragmentation, and gel penetration is identical in testing done by Ammolab's David Difabio."


    A few discussions about Five Seven

  9. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

  10. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    A friend of mine has one and I shot it one day at the range. I liked it, but if memory serves me correct the trigger was not that great. The recoil though was negligible, about like shooting a .22. A very fun gun to shoot.

    I'm with Mags on not being able to get the SS109 ammo. The ammo availability and price also has to be a concern.
  11. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    I played around with one for a while, until I got tired of it. It is accurate, and will absolutely decimate a can of beer. I'll probably play with it some more when I get home, if I can find some more ammo. It has kind of a sharp report that really rings my ears; the only other pistol I ever had that did that was a Ruger single-six in .30 carbine. I got rid of that sucker because the noise made it painful to shoot.
  12. Valkman

    Valkman Knifemaker Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I was just thinking of getting one but the gun cost way more than I thought it would, and I'm afraid the wow factor will wear off real fast. Plus the difficulty getting reloading components. I'll probably get another XD45.
  13. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    Man, what's your problem...... ;)
  14. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

    I am assuming you wouldn't sacrifice a full can of beer, Seacowboys. That is would be a truly sad day. Please let me know if it was an empty or full can as I may have a hard time falling asleep with all the angst.
  15. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    You cannot go wrong with another XD......I have a couple of .45's
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