For The Children

Discussion in 'Freedom and Liberty' started by Minuteman, Apr 14, 2008.

  1. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    I have been thinking about this for a few days now. Does anybody else see something wrong here or is it just me? This sect in Texas that the authorities have come in and taken all the children away from thier parents. They are ransacking a church and homes of citizens on some very shady pretext. Now let me say, IF there is a child in danger or being abused we have the duty to do anything possible (within the law) to protect that child. BUT, here's my problem. We don't use allegations of "child abuse" or any other crime, to disregard the constitution. We have a mysterious phone call but no one can find the caller. The guy accused of a crime has been proven to be in another state and has not been to Texas in years. So with any lack of evidence of a crime the authorities are seperating families and carrying out searches, looking for evidence.

    This smacks to me of big brother, police state tactics. It is no different than the Branch Davidian debacle in Waco. It was proven that the authorities had no valid reason to go in there. They forged "evidence" and lied to obtain warrants. But people sat back and raised no objections because of the children. Because they were wierd people.

    Now I am no supporter of David Koresh or any other people who use religion to promote thier own personal depravities. BUT, as long as they are not doing anything against the laws of this nation or the state they reside in, then I don't see that it is any of our business. The Sherriff of the county where the Branch Davidians lived has said that his office had investigated allegations of child abuse and found no evidence of it. So the "We're doing it for the children" excuse was proven to be a smokescreen with no merit.

    I don't like or agree with the beliefs of this cult but lacking any concrete (prior) proof of a crime being commited they are presumed innocent and protected by the constitution against unreasonable search and siezures.
    These raids and removal of over 400 kids from thier parents in in my opinion is a blatant slap in the face to constitutional law. But no one is complaining.

    It is a slippery slope. If we allow it because "they" are a wierd and different people, then that just opens the door for the next time. It could be homeschooled kids who are declared to be being abused by thier parents and in need of state protection. Kids whose parents teach them to shoot guns. They need to be protected. Sometimes in a free society we have to tolerate people and practices that we don't like or agree with in order to protect the rights of all of us. We have to stand up for and fight for the rights of people we disagree with just as vehemently as we do for people we do agree with.

    By doing the right thing, we accept the trampling of our laws. Then it becomes easier to disregard them the next time. We have to defend the indefensible as vigorously as we would anyone else. And if, after all constitutional restraints are observed, evidence of a crime is found then we prosecute that crime with the full and unmerciful force of the law.
    But there should never be any reason or excuse, even "for the children", that allows us to disregard the constitutional rights that protect all of us, not just those of us we see as "normal".

    So what say you Monkeys? Am I alone in this or do others see a danger here?

    Brokor likes this.
  2. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    There is indeed the odor of dead fish about the whole operation, and the further it goes, the more it seems to stink. 400 odd kids, no one seems able to identify the parents, and the 130 some odd women that went out with the kids are separated from them? And how does holding the kids in cramped quarters helping their health, both mental and physical, compared to living with the parents or a familiar environment (so long as abuse is not part of it)? (MSNBC says some have been hospitalized for various bugs, but no confirmation of the rumor.)

    I agree that the phone call that triggered this mess was sufficient to knock on a door, but the rest of it smacks of a fishing expedition, warrants to the contrary.

    I think the public does not know enough about this whole thing, yet; there are more questions than answers. The only good thing so far is that the tanks are not pulling a Waco on the site.
  3. ColtCarbine

    ColtCarbine Monkey+++ Founding Member

    You guys have a link to an article pertaining to this? Or is this something that was only on the television?
  4. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    No particular link, but MSNBC has had something on it every day since the original warrants were served.
  5. CBMS

    CBMS Looking for a safe place

    I agree something doesnt seem right. However they keep talking about forced statutory rape between 14 y/o and their husbands. Now I understand that a girl called them saying that she was being abused at the place, and therefore whats happening should be looked over to make sure that these kids are ok. Also to educate them what abuse IS and how they can protect themselves. I don't agree with the separation of 400+ children from their families to go rot in some Foster Care system.

    This situation stinks, Lets remember not to gather in large groups where we can be targeted easily.
  6. FalconDance

    FalconDance Neighborhood Witch

    The only person I've seen/heard of being interviewed is a woman who took 5 of her 6 (I think) children and fled the group a few years back. Her words are being used to "prove" the sect/cult/group is dangerous and evil. Personally, I want more proof.

    The mysterious caller was allegedly a 16 year old who was pregnant by her 50 yr old husband who beat and raped her. Yet she hasn't been identified of the ones taken from the group. Fishy.

    Yes, we need to protect children. Yes, we need to keep an eye on people/groups who take any religion to the extreme as a method to justify some truly questionable activities. And Yes, we should act *before* people or children as injured or otherwise threatened. BUT, as usual, the govt is using a battering ram when a knock on the door might have sufficed.
  7. RouteClearance

    RouteClearance Monkey+++

    Something is not right with this. They have yet to locate that 16 yr old who supposedly made the call to begine with. If a proper investigation was done, then Texas may have save a lot of taxpayers money.
  8. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I saw no reason for the SWAT episode. Investigators should have been brought in to investigate the claims. NO FEDERAL INTERVENTION is needed. Let the local yokals do their job. If it turns out to be numerous people were committing rape or abusing their wives/children, then I could see lining the buses up.

  9. Tracy

    Tracy Insatiably Curious Moderator Founding Member

    Because they were part of a religious group, their actions might have been protected by freedom of religion. However, Texas state law does not allow a minor to be married if they are under the age of 16, even with parental consent.

    What I see as a frightening reality is that over 400 children were removed from thier family and home due to one girl's situation. Have they recovered evidence that each and every one of those children have suffered some form of abuse or neglect and that removal from the parents was necessary?

    In cases of child welfare that I have witnessed, the agency does what they can to "protect" the child from the dangerous situation (usually removal) and then the burden of proof lies on the parents. They must prove to the agency that they are, in fact, good parents (which is very difficult to do without children).

    I am concerned with the their welfare because I also see a possibility that it could happen to any number of groups, as MM described.
  10. BigO01

    BigO01 Monkey+++ Founding Member

    The sad part is not only is MM right but he doesn't even scratch the surface of the governments bumblings in things of this nature .

    On one hand they go way to far in violating constitutional law and on the other they claim to be protecting it when it comes to cruel and unusual punishment of the real scum that preys on children .

    How many proven child molesters do we have running the streets and living among us while being on their wonderful "Sex Offender" lists and maybe even if we are lucky they wear bracelets to monitor their movements ?

    How many decent peoples lives have been ruined by societies backlash due to these laws being poorly written and selectively prosecuted ?

    While I can understand and support a Statutory rape charge of a 21+ year old male knowingly having sex with a 16 YO girl when it becomes a case of a 17 ,18 , or even 19 YO male with his girlfriend it becomes a whole different ball game .

    While someone relieving themselves in a public area on the surface sounds vile and disgusting how many of us on a long trip haven't pulled to the side of the road and went into the bushes to relieve their bladders ?

    Fact of the matter is if a LEO catches you doing this the charge you will face will put in the same category of a sexual predator from what I have been told from LEO friends .

    The animals that abuse children are more often than not released in a few years to do it all over again , unless of course the case catches the medias attention as it recently did in the Michael Devlen Kidnapping of two boys , he will spend the rest of his life in some prison somewhere .

    In my opinion this depraved POS deserves a noose around his neck but then again so do all of those convicted of the same crimes Nation wide yet we have thousands of them running loose and on the governments lists , like that will protect your children walking home from school .

    Child abuse , Spouse abuse , Rape have all become the modern day Accusations of witchcraft , when a decent and innocent person is wrongly accused their lives are ruined by the stigma , yet when a guilty person is found so , it usually barely effects them , after all public scorn means nothing to an already natural outcast of society and solitude and secrecy is what they want and need to commit their crimes anyway .

    It's funny how the do gooders get all teary eyed worrying about a child's emotional well being from various tragic life events yet couldn't care less what damage their reaction or overreaction to a false accusation can be from ripping them wrongfully away from loving parents and then hide behind the mantra of "just doing their job" to protecting the children .
  11. RouteClearance

    RouteClearance Monkey+++

    Acording to MSM, TPTB have been trying to destroy this church since the fifties. Now that they have been able to arrest the sect leader Warren Jeffs, it seams they are trying to destroy the church in on final act, but authorities in Arizona/Utha fear that this will only solidify the FLDS.
    From all accouts, Jeffs deserves to be incarcerated for stautory rape if found guilty, but you cannot just pull these people from the only way of life that they have ever known thinking that it will be easy to just "Deprogram" them.
    Even though I do not agree with their beliefs and practices, it still does not give anyone the right to just barge in on them with a moral authority attitude just because "You" think it's wrong. This is what can lead to an all out revolution that will probably be even more bloody than the "Cival War".
    All this on top of a very shakey economy does not bode well for this nation today
  12. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    How about "polygamy" ; (is it a federal crime?)??
  13. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Most of the groups that practice poligamy (and as I understand it this one as well) sidestep the legal issues of it by the fact that they will either only get a marriage lisence for their first spouce the the rest are 'spiritual' spouces who they marry in a cerimoney in their church but (as should be in all of them) keep the gov out of them OR they will get a legal devorce (but not in their church) from each spouce before marrying the next. So as far as law would go they would only be married to ONE person at a time and the others would simply be affairs or some such.

    I remember watching the Waco massicure and seige on TV and even then cheering for the Davidians (and even more so as I have learned more of the actual events) and I fear this is simply the start of another such attack on a religious group that is at least precieved to be outside the mainstream. From anything I have heard there was one UNPROVEN claim that a 16 y/o girl had been raped and abused by an older man she had been forced/coerced into marrying and have not even heard of any other complaints/charges and then the goob goes in and takes all the children from everyone else because they are of the same religion.

    Cult is simply an older stand by synonym for terorist, its simply a lable that can be attached to anyone who dosent toe the line in order to make it 'ok' to do whatever you want to them. Based on some of the more insane definitions I would be a terrorist simply due to posting the gov is wrong and should correct their BS and thus it would be fine for me to be disappeared, waterboarded and so on with no trial. For a long time (pretty much always) it has been basicly accepted that 'cult' members are bad and evil and therefore any means to get rid of them is acceptable. I have seen it used against pagans many times and is rarely even challenged or announced plublicy be it takeing their children or free use of their land or simply refuseing to stop criminal abuses against them. It also gets used at times against folks who base their beliefs in christianity and have a diffrent take on the Bible just like in this case or Waco.

    Based even on what is known there is so much violation of the Constitutional rights of these folks that there can be no justification for it and I would imagine if all true facts came to light there would be even less reason/excuse for it.

    ......Then they came for the ######## but I was not a ######## so I said nothing.....
    Then they came for me and there was no one left to say anything......
  14. CBMS

    CBMS Looking for a safe place

    As a young adult I fealt I needed to know so I looked up these issues and within the USofA If you are within 4 years of age of your sexual partner, then there is no statutory rape case for grabs.

    A tidbit of information from up north here, 14 is the age of consent. Messed up, Eh?
  15. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    If they are humping the baby's then fry their asses.taser1
  16. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    restraining somebodywith mental imagery can be as effective as hancuffs and chains.Ask an elephant trainer.These kids were brainwashed,captured/restrained and stripped of their rights...
  17. ColtCarbine

    ColtCarbine Monkey+++ Founding Member

    I saw a clip on this last night on the news.

    Did anybody else hear that the statement that lead them to this cult might have been a hoax or did I hear this wrong?
  18. ozarkgoatman

    ozarkgoatman Resident goat herder

    To me anything that .gov does is susbect at best. As far as the polygamy, as long as it's done between consenting adults I really don't care if a 100 (or more) weman want to marry 1 guy or the other way around, or if 100 men want to be married together, or 100 weman.

  19. CBMS

    CBMS Looking for a safe place

    Hey OGM technically its called Polygyny for one man many wives, and Polyandry for one wife many husbands.
    What do you call your second wife? 2 too many.
    What do you call your second husband? Slave number 2
  20. BAT1

    BAT1 Cowboys know no fear

    I personally think that they have gone from the frying pan to the fire. My two brothers and I were in foster homes, the mother tried with me and the father tried with my two brothers. We were stringing barbed wire one day and the barbed wire broke [somehow] and rolled him up in barbed wire. We split and never were found. That was in 72, It's got to be worse now. Most pedifiles love that profession. I don't wish that on any one. But who's worse here? The problem here is that they did not have birth certificates, didn't have DNA samples taken and SS numbers assigned from birth. Now they do. That's the issue, they were making non taxpayers. The Federal reserve doesn't like that. If they were abusing them, nail the people who did it but don't punish the small ones. Can you imagine those people in the midst of regular school age children. Mercy. Home schoolers beware. Between the two, neither is a better option.
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