For The Children

Discussion in 'Freedom and Liberty' started by Minuteman, Apr 14, 2008.


  1. WestPointMAG

    WestPointMAG Monkey++

    I think you will see a lot of this kind of activity by the FEDs before it is all over. For the ones here that are members of MAGs my advice would be to keep a low profile and not train or meet in large numbers.

     
  2. FalconDance

    FalconDance Neighborhood Witch

    SO FAR, the only thing I've heard anyone say that the govt points to as "child abuse" of these kids is that they were taught to not trust the government (or, really, anyone on the 'outside') because --- the govt would take them away from their parents and make them live with people who would make them watch tv and dress in an un-modest way! Given what's happened, can you blame the kids for not fully cooperating?!? The govt is their bogeyman - and the bogeyman showed up at the door!

    Oh, and the women and girls were "forced" to dress in "18th century" dresses. Clearly abusive, huh. Except they are NOT dressed in 18th century dresses. If they were, it would be of historic interest since no group I know of in modern times dresses as if in the 1700s except for maybe historic reenactments. Frekkin' media can't get anything right these days!
     
  3. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Mike Savage was just on the a.m. talker ranting about this subject he used the "F"word ALOT...
    ("fascism")
     
  4. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    As far as the idea of 'brainwashing' that is actualy rather subjective. To an athiest any one who believes in christianity (these belief systems just used as examples could be any)is brainwashed and if you look at it objectively it could be well applied. Stop and think about the basics of brainwashing someone. You controle them by convinceing them x is good and y is bad, you achive and reinforce this by controleing diet, social interactions, sex and schedule includeing sleep then the central thing is the x=good/Y=bad and you will only be liked/rewarded for good or punished and disliked if do bad. Most any belief system has its own views to some extent on all of these; diet-some foods restricted in some faits, mostly meats/protines which you remove to make people easier to brainwash, sex-most faiths restrict sexuality to some point or another, schedule/sleep-sloth is discouraged by most belief systems, meetings on schedule etc. Most all belief systems have some form of heaven if you do good and you will be loved by the devine and hell and dislike (or at least alienation) of the devine if do bad.

    ALL forms of social interaction are a form of brainwashing/conditioning. If you teach your kids they are free and protected by the Constitution and that guns are our right and that they should earn what they want (or anything you teach them) then you 'brainwash' them to that. If the brainwashing is a good thing or a bad depends basicly on if you agree with the result and ideas being put in place. So even if you want to figure they were brainwashed then yeah that will controle a person if it hasnt been screwed up, thats why most of us dont steal, rape, murder, etc, weh have been raised/conditioned/brainwashed to understand those things are bad and that doing them results in bad things happening. Most all can agree these are good ideas to have programed into people and that you dont want people deprogramed from them, the difference in the ideas of this group is simply that not everyone shares their views on some aspects of their lives. They marry more than one person which only affects them and their family and they aledgedly marry 'young girls' who are 15-16 years old.....same age my grandmother was when she got maried, grandpa was a few years older but supported them and half a dozen kids till they were raised and they stayed married until he died about 80 years later....I would imagine not to far off from the age many of our grandparents were married at.

    Im not saying everyone should live by their standards but aside from acusations in ONE family I havent heard that there was rampent abuse of any kind, so why shouldnt they be allowed to live as they see fit just like those who live like the Jonses? Now IF a woman wants out of it and someone forces her to stay (not that 'I wont be your friend or talk to you if you leave' but locks her up, restrains her, threatens her with violence, MAKES her stay) then by all means, remove the obstacle and arrest the person/people in her way and let her go find a different way to live but as long as the adults all choose to live that way let them and so longas their children are not neglected or abused then stay out of parenting. The gov has enouph people they raise through welfare and they sure dont seem to be doing to well at it.
     
  5. BAT1

    BAT1 Cowboys know no fear

    I can't divulge the sources, but the children did not know what crayons were, and their was mumps, chicken pox, and measels found in some. They knew more about farm work than most kids do. There are several young moms with four to six kids. The men cannot be found. They will probably not get their kids back. The system doesn't like children they don't know about, with out birth certificates, DNA samples and SS numbers. Foster homes will be no better, they have gone from the frying pan to the fire. [ been there done that] The way the state carried it out, with APC's and snipers, just show us we are in a police state. They were not a 501-c puppet either. [cow]
     
  6. CBMS

    CBMS Looking for a safe place

    Well of course it was the Snipers and the EH PEEE ZEEE's. You know how violent revolutionary the mormons are, with their well pressed pants and ties. How they ask for world peace and independence from the corrupt masses. Evil people they are, not to be trusted.
    Trust the good people of our government, they are much nicer and always have your best interest at heart.

    On the otherhand, if there were mumps and measles running around, I would have liked to see those kids vaccinated. Sorry folks, I believe highly communicable diseases should be exterminated.
     
  7. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member


    Well, if the men 'cant be found' then have to wonder if they were determined to be 'homegrown terorists' and got disappeared to Gitmo or some less known spot.

    Its sad to realize that I cant really think of any of the things that were used as examples when I was a kid of why Russia was so evil that dont apply here now days.
     
  8. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

     
  9. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    The belief system at a polygamous sect is abusive and teen girls do not resist early marriages because they are trained to be obedient and compliant, an expert testified Friday in a custody hearing for 416 children seized from a secluded ranch.

    Many of the women had children when they were minors, some as young as 13, a child welfare worker said earlier in the child custody hearing, one of the largest and most convoluted in U.S. history.

    State District Judge Barbara Walther must decide whether the children will remain in state custody. Child welfare officials claim the children were abused or in imminent danger of abuse because the sect encourages girls younger than 18 to marry and have children.

    An expert in children in cults testified Friday that while the teen girls believed they were marrying out of free choice, it's a choice based on lessons they've had from birth.

    So since what they believe dosent fit the 'orm' then they cant know what they want, they would only know they were doing it of free choice if it fits social norms.

    "Obedience is a very important element of their belief system," said psychiatrist Bruce Perry, who interviewed three girls seized in the April 3 raid. "Compliance is being godly, it's part of their honoring God."

    He also said that many of the adults at the Yearning For Zion Ranch owned by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are loving parents and that the boys seemed emotionally healthy when he played with them.

    But, he noted, the sect's belief system "is abusive. The culture is very authoritarian."

    So then that would be different from how they are being dealt with by the gov agencies how? Dose that mean all the kids and people for that matter get to be taken away from the gov agencies?

    Child welfare investigator Angie Voss testified Thursday that at least five girls who are younger than 18 are pregnant or have children. Voss said some of the women identified as adults with children may be juveniles, or may have had children when they were younger than 18.

    Hmmmm....lets see they think MAYBE 5 out of over 400 were pregnant under 18, so 1.25% of them got pregnant before they turned 18....I wonder how that stacks up to the national average for teen pregnancy?

    Identifying children and parents has been difficult because members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints have given different names and ages at various times, Voss said. The state has asked that DNA be taken from all of the children and their alleged parents to help determine biological connections. The judge has not ruled on that request.

    The court hearing disintegrated into farce early Thursday, as hundreds of lawyers who descended on San Angelo for the proceedings shouted objections or lined up to cross-examine witnesses. The judge struggled to maintain order.

    On Friday, Walther was testier - and stricter, cutting off prolonged cross-examinations of a witness when a line of 10 defense lawyers had formed to ask essentially the same questions. She solicited objections when she felt questioning was going on too long.

    The renegade Mormon sect is led by Warren Jeffs, who is currently awaiting trial in a Kingman, Ariz., jail on charges related to the promotion of underage marriages. He previously was convicted of being an accomplice to the rape of a 14-year-old wed to her cousin in a Utah case.

    The sect came to West Texas in 2003, relocating some members from the church's traditional home along the Utah-Arizona state line.

    Authorities raided the 1,700-acre ranch south of here in Eldorado on April 3 and began removing children while seeking evidence of underage girls being married to adults. Walther signed an emergency order giving the state custody of the children taken from the ranch.

    Yeah no need to find any evidence BEFORE kicking in doors and stealing peoples children.

    The raid was prompted by a call from someone identifying herself as a 16-year-old girl with the sect. She claimed her husband, a 50-year-old member of the sect, beat and raped her.

    The girl has yet to be identified, though Voss said a girl matching her description was seen by other girls in the ranch garden four days before the raid began.

    So, they kick in doors, steal children, go fishing for any evidence of some kind of unknown crime to charge someone with and tear families apart whoes ONLY conection to aleged crimes is being of the same religion without even haveing any identified complaintant much less ANY evidence.....(dripping sarcasam on)well of coarse that seems perfectly reasonable...(dripping sarcasam off)

    Associated Press writer Jennifer Dobner in San Angelo contributed to this report.
     
  10. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    OK, here is the dung heap on the table, step right up and have a sniff. Get out your bag of rocks and commence heaving.

    SAN ANGELO, Texas -- The belief system at a polygamous sect is abusive
    Clearly opinion, thus far unsubstantiated.
    and teen girls do not resist early marriages because they are trained to be obedient and compliant,
    Our mainstream culture does not recognize differing cultural beliefs, in spite of the PC behaviors we are subjected to following. The fact that these females are taught NOT to think for themselves is regrettable, but there is no reason to force mainstream thinking on them that I can see.
    ---------------

    Many of the women had children when they were minors, some as young as 13, a child welfare worker said earlier in the child custody hearing,
    On what evidence is that statement made? Sounds like opinion to me. Maybe the court has seen evidence, the rest of us have not.

    ----------------

    State District Judge Barbara Walther must decide whether the children will remain in state custody. Child welfare officials claim the children were abused or in imminent danger of abuse because the sect encourages girls younger than 18 to marry and have children.
    These "claims" leave me cold pending something concrete. So far, all that has hit the media is the alleged phone call.
    An expert in children in cults testified Friday that while the teen girls believed they were marrying out of free choice, it's a choice based on lessons they've had from birth.
    Again, this seems like something taken from a text book on brainwashing. I note with displeasure that brainwashing (in this context) is practiced by all societies that differ from what we like to believe (based on our own upbringing; that is, brainwashing to the standards we were brought up in.) "Brainwashing" is a term applied to any attempt to change a belief system (especially in a negative way like popular spy novels have it. It is real, but not applicable to mainstream beliefs, only those forcing a change in mindset. IMHO, while acknowledging the reality of war time.)

    "Obedience is a very important element of their belief system," said psychiatrist Bruce Perry, who interviewed three girls seized in the April 3 raid. "Compliance is being godly, it's part of their honoring God."
    And obedience is a problem in what way? Unless the mind is trained to think critically, obedience is not a bad thing. Those that cannot think really should obey those who do. Now, it is a different story if thinking is punished. I add that obedience to God is good as long as it does not slavishly follow Man's interpretation of God's words.

    He also said that many of the adults at the Yearning For Zion Ranch owned by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are loving parents and that the boys seemed emotionally healthy when he played with them.
    So far, so good for the boys. I suspect there is more to be revealed on that score.

    But, he noted, the sect's belief system "is abusive.
    Again, opinion.
    The culture is very authoritarian."
    Military authority comes to mind. Read Navy Regs lately?

    Child welfare investigator Angie Voss testified Thursday that at least five girls who are younger than 18 are pregnant or have children. Voss said some of the women identified as adults with children may be juveniles, or may have had children when they were younger than 18.
    So far, this is unsubstantiated, but eventually I imagine it will be shown to be true. It is mainstream society that looks down its collective nose at other cultural phenomena. It is not only here in the good ol' USA that pregnancy and births are common among those under 18.

    Identifying children and parents has been difficult because members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints have given different names and ages at various times, Voss said. The state has asked that DNA be taken from all of the children and their alleged parents to help determine biological connections. The judge has not ruled on that request.
    In my mind, DNA "taking" will be a violation of privacy. It was not that many years ago that a man's word was taken as truth. A shame it cannot be so taken any longer. Where are all the men that are not acknowledging their children? Subpoena them, says me, don't invade privacy to prove a case better addressed in another way.

    The court hearing disintegrated into farce early Thursday, as hundreds of lawyers who descended on San Angelo for the proceedings shouted objections or lined up to cross-examine witnesses. The judge struggled to maintain order.
    Poor bugger, that judge. This is going to go down as one of the biggest legal clusterf**k in US jurisprudence. It will NOT be over next week.

    Authorities raided the 1,700-acre ranch south of here in Eldorado on April 3 and began removing children while seeking evidence of underage girls being married to adults. Walther signed an emergency order giving the state custody of the children taken from the ranch.
    Bad juju, that order. The state was totally unprepared to care for the broken families yanked out of (presumably) comfortable circumstances and herded into a secure barracks arrangement.

    The raid was prompted by a call from someone identifying herself as a 16-year-old girl with the sect. She claimed her husband, a 50-year-old member of the sect, beat and raped her.
    This evidently has all come from what may well have been a hoax according to one rumor floating around. If proven to be a hoax, or even questionable, it smacks of something similar to a disaffected employee stirring the pot. And the fur will then fly, betcha.

    The girl has yet to be identified, though Voss said a girl matching her description was seen by other girls in the ranch garden four days before the raid began.
    More heresay.

    What to do? Send them all back after the men are called in to ID their kids. After that, point out that the are laws being broken and deal with that fact. 13 year olds are not old (except in very unusual circumstances) enough to be mothers. Pick an age older than that, and we can argue details.

    Texas stomped on it's own foreskin here, they moved too soon, with too little information, and with too much force. Thus spake me, and likely as not, me only.
     
  11. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    Take almost any group and you could substitute it for these people.

    Authoritarian? In most of Christianity the man is recognized as the spiritual head of his house. He is to rule his home and family as Christ rules the church. With love and compassion, to the point of laying his life down for them. But according to this that is an authoritarian view and "abusive".

    Taught to submit to authority? Again most Christian denominations teach basically the same thing.

    The girls are acting out of lessons taught to them from birth. So teaching our children anything not accepted and approved by the state is abuse?

    If they have a 13 or 14 year old girl who has been impregnated by an adult then find out who it was and throw them under the jail. But, in the state of Texas it is legal for a girl of 16 to wed with parental permission. So this under 18 statement lacks any credibility. I think they are trying to sensationalise it. Also in some states, agree with it or not, the legal age is 14.

    IF they have broken the law, come down on the ones who violated the law with the full force of the law. But the problem I see here is that they are condemning the entire group because they are not mainstream and not socially acceptable. They are being persecuted for thier beliefs and thier lifestyle. If they can do it to this group it could be any group next. They are setting a precedent that is unacceptable in a free society.

    On the news today thy have arrested a 30 something year old woman in Colorado for making false reports. It is speculated that she was the mysterious 16 year old. She had an axe to grind and fabricated the whole story.

    Like I said in the first post, this whole thing just does not set well with me. I see the state acting in ways that would not be tolerated if this was a mainstream group. But they can get away with it becuse these are wierd, cultish, people and they are doing it for the children.

    By allowing this to go unchallenged it makes it easier and more acceptable the next time that the state decides someone or some group is not teaching thier children what the state deems to be appropriate.
     
  12. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    Texas polygamist sect is accused of indoctrinating girls

    By MICHELLE ROBERTS, Associated Press Writer 42 minutes ago

    SAN ANGELO, Texas - Girls in the west Texas polygamous sect enter into underage marriages without resistance because they are ruthlessly indoctrinated from birth to believe disobedience will lead to their damnation, experts for the state testified Friday at a custody hearing for 416 youngsters.

    The renegade Mormon sect's belief system "is abusive. The culture is very authoritarian," said Dr. Bruce Perry, a psychiatrist and an authority on children in cults.

    But under questioning from defense lawyers who lined up in the courtroom aisles to have a turn at each witness, the state's experts acknowledged that the sect mothers are loving parents and that there were no signs of abuse among younger girls and any of the boys.

    The testimony came on Day 2 of an extraordinary mass hearing over an attempt by the state of Texas to strip the parents of custody and place the children in foster homes away from the compound inhabited by members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

    A witness for the parents who was presented by defense lawyers as an expert on the FLDS disputed the state's contention that a bed in the retreat's gleaming white temple was used to consummate the marriages of underage girls to much older men.

    Instead, W. John Walsh testified, it is used for naps during the sect's long worship services.

    "There is no sexual activity in the temple," Walsh said.

    The children were seized this month in a raid on the desert compound because of evidence of physical and sexual abuse, including the forcing of underage girls into marriage and childbearing.

    Texas District Judge Barbara Walther boiled it down this way: "The issue before the court is: Can I give them back?"

    Attorneys for the children and the parents appeared to be trying to show in cross-examination that their children were fine and that the state was trying to tear families apart on the mere possibility that the girls might be abused when they reach puberty several years from now.

    Only a few of the children are teenage girls. Roughly a third are younger than 4 and more than two dozen are teenage boys.
    But about 20 women or more gave birth when they were minors, some as young as 13, authorities say.

    The judge controlled the hundreds of lawyers with a steelier hand Friday than she did the day before.

    Under cross-examination, state child-welfare investigator Angie Voss conceded there have been no allegations of abuse against babies, prepubescent girls or any boys.

    But her agency, Child Protective Services, contends that the teachings of the FLDS — to marry shortly after puberty, have as many children as possible and obey their fathers or their prophet, imprisoned leader Warren Jeffs — amount to abuse.

    "This is a population of women who appear to have a problem making a decision on their own," Voss said.
    In response, the FLDS women, dressed in long, pioneer-style dresses with their hair swept up in braids, groaned in chorus with their dark-suited attorneys.

    Walsh disputed that young girls have no say in who they marry.
    "Basically, they're into match-making," he said of the sect, adding that girls who have refused matches have not been expelled.
    "I believe the girls are given a real choice. Girls have successfully said, 'No, this is not a good match for me,' and they remained in good standing," he said.

    Perry testified that the girls he interviewed said they freely chose to marry young. But he said those choices were based on lessons drilled into them from birth.

    "Obedience is a very important element of their belief system," he said. "Compliance is being godly; it's part of their honoring God."

    Perry acknowledged that many of the adults at the ranch are loving parents and that the boys seemed emotionally healthy when he played with them. When asked whether the belief system really endangered the older boys or young children, Perry said, "I have lost sleep over that question."

    Under questioning, Perry also conceded the children would suffer if placed in traditional foster care.

    "If these children are kept in the custody of the state, there would have to be exceptional and innovative programmatic elements for these children and their families," he said. "The traditional foster care system would be destructive for these children."

    At that, dozens of FLDS parents applauded.

    Eugene Volokh, a UCLA law professor, said courts have generally held that a parent's belief system cannot, in itself, justify a child's removal. He said, for example, that a parent might teach his child that smoking marijuana is acceptable, but only when he helps the child buy pot does he cross the line.

    "The general view of the legal system is until there is an imminent risk of harm or actual harm, you can't" take the children, Volokh said.

    The raid was prompted by a call from someone identifying herself as a 16-year-old girl with the sect. She claimed her husband, a 50-year-old member of the sect, beat and raped her. Investigators have yet to identify her among the children seized.

    Jeffs is in prison for being an accomplice to rape. He was convicted in Utah last year of forcing a 14-year-old into marrying an older man.
    Walsh testified that the renegade Mormon sect did not promote underage marriages until imprisoned leader Warren Jeffs took over as the sect's "prophet."

    "He encourages marriage," Walsh said. "In some ways, he's indifferent to their age."

     
  13. RouteClearance

    RouteClearance Monkey+++

    I have a feeling the state of Texas will come out of this with egg on their face, if they cannot prove any of these allegations. The state could also be setting itself up for a massive lawsuit if their case falls completly apart.
     
  14. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I would love to see them get a major shark of a lawyer and file a civil right suit against those involved and sue them PERSONALY which is allowed with a civil rights case, and simply put EVERY person involved in takeing their children and attacking them out on the streets owning everything they make for life. Maybe it would send a message to others in positions of authority that they can be called to anwser for their crimes and encourage refusal of illegal orders from superiors in the future. So far as Im concerned, given that they went in in violation of their constitutional rights (no justified warrent or evidence) then even if they find that some of them did violate the law they should walk (fruit of the forbiden tree). The age for marriages is pretty questionable anyway since marriage is a religious/spiritual institution at its core and not a government function and while it may not be considered socialy (or legally) acceptable presently, just 2 or 3 generations ago the youngest they claim have been married would not have been unusual to wed. If we go by natural dictates then menstration indicates being ready to procreate. Its NOT something I would find appealing and find it distasteful to marry or have sex with females nearly that young but so long as it is concentual then Im still of the opinion that that falls under freedom of religion. I pretty well consider governments dictats reguarding marriage to be as meritless as their dictats reguarding arms, they are prohibited from controleing it so their laws regarding the matters are meaningless.
     
  15. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    Yep he is pure as driven snow.
     
  16. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    yep looking like fine upstanding people[lolol]
     
  17. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    As I understand it at least, Jeffs wasnt even there and had already been in jail. I also have gathered that the his part in 'rapeing a 14 year old girl' was simply that he married her and her cousin and since she was a minor and they consimated the marriage he was an 'accomplice to statutory rape'.

    The peoples claim at least is that there was no sexual activity in the temple and that the beds were for children to take naps durring very long services, may or may not be.

    Im not saying by any means that the folks are on the same page as most of the rest of us BUT still havent heard anything cridible to show that anyone was forced to do anything against their will, they simply have a different religion/belief system and the 'victims' hold that same belief system and choose to take part. Since there was no hard evidence that THESE people were commiting any crimes they had no reason to go in and if its tolerated because they have unpopular beliefs, which of us is next and who will stand up then if no one says its wrong now?
     
  18. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    I am sorry if I have offended the Mormon/LDS members here in this thread or board, its not my intention, I just have no room for statutory rapist.
    If one of these 40+ men raped my 14 y old daughter I would execute anyone involved in the crime.
     
    Alpha Dog likes this.
  19. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Wel at least for my part, Im by no means LDS or even close, and not really offended, I just look at it from the factor of how the gov went in with indiference to the restrictions that are to keep them in check. I also figure if a man any age raped the ladies of any age in my life the VERY best thing they could do for themselves would be to turn them selves in to the cops and manage to get solitary for life or kill themselves, because I would not be so merciful as to simply execute them. The difference I see in the case here though is in the deffinition of rape. They consider the girls to be adults and the wemon/girls (acording to members who have been interviewed) have the right to decide they dont want to marry who ever and once they are married they have CONCENTUAL sex with their husbands. In that situation the only way the word 'rape' comes into it is a government definition of statuatory rape because the state dosent consider them an adult. IF a given person in the group IS forceing girls to have sex with them then yeah, toss them in prison, stick their arms through the cell bars, depants them and tape a jar of vasoline to their back. The central thing though that makes it appear that there is no evidence to sugest such though is that they didnt go in and arrest certain people and take THEIR kids, they had VERY weak evidence for anything more than at most a knock on a door and voluntary conversation (no actual complaint just a phone call from someone they cant even prove exists) and that only for ONE household but they went in and took the kids from every one in the community. It would be like if after Gunkid was here and a 'member' of our comunity, the feds found out he was committing crimes so rather than just getting him like they did (and good ridance) they had raided the homes of every member of the board and since he commited gun crimes, take the weapons of every member and search for anything to charge them with.

    If they find that the caller was real rather than the woman in CO who had a bone to pick with them and is believed to have made the call to stir up crap for them, and find she was in fact abused and raped by her husband then by all means hang him (preferably not by the neck where it ends quickly) but to attack everyone in the community even if he did so is where I see the HUGE problem.
     
  20. nightshade7206

    nightshade7206 Monkey+++

    Yes something is wrong with this situation. I don't understand why the feds are in it at all. How do you justify the taking of 400+ children?
     
  1. BTPost
  2. Yard Dart
  3. Meat
  4. Legion489
  5. stg58
  6. Matteo10572
  7. Yard Dart
  8. AmericanRedoubt1776
  9. AmericanRedoubt1776
  10. Brokor
  11. Tango3
survivalmonkey SSL seal        survivalmonkey.com warrant canary
17282WuJHksJ9798f34razfKbPATqTq9E7