Freedom of speech does not mean freedom without consequence for those who exercise that freedom.

Discussion in 'Freedom and Liberty' started by chelloveck, Aug 22, 2017.

  1. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    Much hand wringing and angst has been expressed with regard to negative consequences being experienced by some of those who were active participants of the Charlottsville VA protests (and elsewhere). I think that George Takei expressed the issue of 'freedom of speech' quite well.

    Freedom of speech and the consequences of exercising it are highlighted in the cases of Nicholas Fuentes [​IMG]
    College students make moves to further white nationalist message, campuses brace for violence — College and University

    'It's becoming dangerous': Student who attended neo-Nazi march forced to leave university after backlash

    Allen Armentrout (centre of picture)
    Charlottesville fallout: Student says he was kicked out of a college for participating

    And several Boston College students who organised and participated in peaceful, albeit unauthorised protests against Trump's election as POTUS. Seven Boston College students could face expulsion after Trump protests | Daily Mail Online

    1A Freedom of speech just protects those who exercise it from the government (among other things), hauling them into the slammer for criticising the doesn't protect such individuals from other private individuals and organisations from expressing their 1A rights in opposition, and applying whatever lawful sanctions they a free to exercise.
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2017
  2. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Grampa Monkey

    DAMN RIGHT!!! Chell just nailed it! Just because you have the right doesn't mean you get to say what ever the hell you want to with out having to answer for it! Especially in a public venue! Your 1st amendment rights end when you cause harm to others! Your rights end when you block others from also exercising theirs! Your rights are not superior to mine or any one else!!!
  3. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    That applies to all occupants of political / religious / social (insert belief here) continuums.
  4. 3M-TA3

    3M-TA3 Cold Wet Monkey Site Supporter++

    The problem began when one side decided that their freedom of speech included balloons filled with urine, others filled with urine, feces, and dye, beating people with clubs, and assaulting old women holding the US flag. This started LONG before Charlottsville. Come visit us in Portland and you can see it almost every weekend along with smash and grab looting while the Police are overloaded elsewhere.

    Protest/counter protest/shouting matches, etc., are all OK, just keep your meat hooks to yourself.

    EDIT: Forgot to mention the Molotov cocktails AntiFa was throwing into opposition crowds in downtown Portland last spring. Good thing they were too incompetent to test them before they started throwing them as nobody actually caught on fire.
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2017
  5. Seepalaces

    Seepalaces Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    This is a place where we agree unequivocally. I'd bet that if the antifa thugs went to jail when they break the law, they'd evaporate via attrition. If antifa went away, so would the neo nazis/white nationalists. The only reason the racists are getting traction is because quite a few people fear antifa and their lunacy. Equal rights under the law means equal application of the law. Speech isn't illegal, but bashing people over the head is.
  6. Seepalaces

    Seepalaces Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    And forgot throwing bricks and threatening to drag conservatives out and beat them. We're hispanic and my husband had to stop me from heading out to the free speech protest in Portland because he thought I'd "get all rowdy". What do you have to do to get a hispanic family on the same side with neo nazis?
    Legion489, Motomom34, Ura-Ki and 2 others like this.
  7. 3M-TA3

    3M-TA3 Cold Wet Monkey Site Supporter++

    Obviously, you aren't on the same side as the Nazi's - though you would be painted that way by media that reports based on agenda. The way I see it the KKK, Nazi's, and other white supremacists are trying to make themselves look legitimate by crashing Conservative events. The media, always reporting by agenda, then declare EVERYBODY who showed up as racist idiots. Believe me, they will have a special place in Hell for any Hispanic that does not toe the liberal line. Remember how far they went to destroy Linda Chavez when she was nominated to be the Bush's Secretary of Labor?
    Seepalaces, Ura-Ki and Gator 45/70 like this.
  8. Gator 45/70

    Gator 45/70 Monkey+++

    That's one side I would not even consider being on, Choose wisely
    Ura-Ki likes this.
  9. DKR

    DKR Raconteur of the first stripe

    Don't for little colon Kaperprick, the former football guy. He ran his chops hard enough to run his own bad self out of a job.
    Gator 45/70 likes this.
  10. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    It's usually easier for a Joe Nobody, who hasn't much to lose, to take a public moral stand on some issue; for them, there are generally much fewer consequences for taking that stand. For notable identities, there are greater risks.
    Gator 45/70 and Seepalaces like this.
  11. Seepalaces

    Seepalaces Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    Right back at you. So, you're saying that if the neo nazis are in favor of freedom of speech, you oppose it based, not on the merits, but on the basis that someone you dislike is in favor of it? Choose wisely.
  12. DarkLight

    DarkLight Live Long and Prosper - On Hiatus Site Supporter

    @Seepalaces - you make an excellent point. The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy, no more and no less. As oposed to The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Agreeing with someone about something (freedom of speech for example) doesn't make them my friend or mean that I agree with everything our anything else they say or do.
    Motomom34, Gator 45/70 and Seepalaces like this.
  13. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    It's possible to support an unpopular cause's 1A rights to freedom of speech, without embracing or supporting that cause's ideology or message. The ACLU do that on a regular basis. As odious as is the KKK, Neo Nazi, and white supremacist's policies and rhetoric are, to suppress or deny them their 1A rights, makes the Constitution vulnerable to subverting the free speech rights of others who would protest the racist rhetoric of the aforementioned trio. It is not the government's job to pick and choose who may or may not publicly express their beliefs.... Governments at various levels do have a role in maintaining the rule of law, equally for all; and in ensuring that such public demonstrations do not become disorderly and harm participants and spectators.

    There is a delicious irony when the KKK, Neo Nazis and white supremacists, when confronted by pushback, call upon the ACLU for support and representation. Seeing blubbering fascist nitwits running to that den of socialist, commie do-gooders for legal succour is just so irresistibly amusing. :LOL: I guess the ACLU have segregated consulting rooms when opposing factions both seek assistance from the ACLU at the same time. ;)
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2017
  14. 3M-TA3

    3M-TA3 Cold Wet Monkey Site Supporter++

    My job is just as important to me as any celebrity's career is to them. If I don't toe the politically correct line my job is very much in jeopardy.

    In Kaepernick's case his job was already on the skids due to performance issues. At this stage of his football career he should still be learning and still getting better. Instead he slouched and was effectively replaced before he took his political stance. He took the stance he did entirely to bring attention to himself and come up with an excuse for getting replaced. He currently can't get a job because he is an underperforming distraction. The purpose of an NFL team is to win the Superbowl, and Kaepernick won't get any team closer to that goal.
  15. OldDude49

    OldDude49 Just n old guy

    If... I do not protect the rights of others I open the way for the loss of my own... this MUST includes the rights of those I detest...
  16. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    A well known Talk Show Personality noted, that if you took ALL the KKK'ers, plus ALL the Nazi's, plus ALL their fellow travelers, and added them ALL UP, YOU STILL COULDN'T Elect One Person to a Federal House Seat, in any District in America... Yea, they make a lot of NOISE, but there are NO Numbers behind their BS... and the Left knows this, but hopes if they claim otherwise, often enough, the rest of us, will eventually Believe that they are a Force to be Reconned with, Politically... Which is TOTAL Nonesense....
    Gator 45/70, 3M-TA3 and Seepalaces like this.
  17. Gator 45/70

    Gator 45/70 Monkey+++

    No room for Nazis here, Beware the hand offering gold for next to nothing.
  18. Mountainman

    Mountainman Großes Mitglied Site Supporter+++

    Yeah, reminds me of another WORTHLESS group of people with mental issues that want to share the restrooms with whoever wants to walk in.
    Seepalaces and Gator 45/70 like this.
  19. Seepalaces

    Seepalaces Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    I have wonderful news. The Nazi party was dissolved in 1945! Any adults who were a part of it are at least 90 now. I suspect your fears of the geriatric crowd are overblown. It is my humble opinion that Antifa is a far greater threat to speech as well as the rest of the bill of rights. As far as gold, I appreciate the proverb.
  20. Gator 45/70

    Gator 45/70 Monkey+++

    Nazis have always been here, However would you care to be an Honorary Cajun?
    I can make you one so that when you attend these events Dweebs and Twerps will be WTF?
    P.M. me your address and I will mail you an Rajin Cajun flag, Free of charge!
    We stand for Freedom,Good food,Good music and Good times, Its yours for the effort.

    Seepalaces likes this.
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