Ft. Hood shooting discussion

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by Minuteman, Jan 11, 2010.

  1. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

     I thought this was interesting. Not the response I would have expected from Marines.
    From Alan Korwins "Page Nine" newsletter. 
    Ft. Hood Redux
    The lamestream media told you:
    Note: An unusually busy end-of-year for me delayed this item from release:
    A lone gunman under obvious psychological stress opened fire with semiautomatic assault weapons on a group of defenseless soldiers near a school graduation at Ft. Hood, Texas, killing 13 and wounding dozens of others, until he was shot and stopped by courageous first responders who arrived in only four minutes, or maybe ten minutes, and are being hailed as heroes. The motive for the attack is under investigation.

    The Uninvited Ombudsman notes however that:
    The reporting on this was so typically atrocious it is nauseating. First the jihadi murderer (called 'a lone gunman' by the media) was dead, then he was not. He was an angry Muslim (but this was played down until it could no longer be played down). He was shot by a woman cop (which later turned out to be untrue, maybe). She was widely hailed as a hero (no, the media hailed her as a hero widely). Motive investigations are not needed for infidel-hating Muslims who carry soldier-of-allah cards and scream allah akbar as they follow their religion and kill infidels.

    And wrap my head in duct tape so it don't explode -- every station showed that damnable footage of space-ranger-lookalike SWAT people clumsily climbing out of a black panel van, geared up for nothing, arriving too late for anything -- except to have their pictures taken and replayed and replayed until you could puke.
    The media, with nothing to say, said nothing over and over. They should be ashamed. They're not. They're still showing those meaningless too-late-for-anything bogeymen in cute black assault outfits, but at least, unlike our military, they had guns. Tell me again, how long does it take them to suit up like that?
    John Farnam, one of the nation's leading firearms instructors

    Profession of Arms? Learned helplessness in the military.
    Had Wednesday's serial murders at Ft. Hood taken place just outside the Base in the City of Killeen, TX, the murder suspect would likely have been gunned-down immediately by several Texas CHL holders. Tragically, the murders took place in a "gun-free zone" (aka "criminal empowerment zone"), because in America, among those claiming to be active members of the "Profession of Arms," no one is armed!
    Any gun that is "perfectly safe" is "perfectly useless," and its owner is "perfectly helpless."

    Years ago, in all branches of the US Military, officers and staff NCOs were always armed with a pistol, on base, off base, in uniform, or not. Being ever "armed and ready" was considered a point of honor! To be unarmed was to be incapable of performing one's duty. Such a thing would be dishonorable...
    Under today's "enlightened" policy, even star-wearers are unarmed and helpless, foolishly relying upon some ill-defined "reactionary force" to protect them, a force that will predictably arrive long after the damage has been done. [Note: Marines reminded the Uninvited Ombudsman that under Clinton, as a force reduction, base gates are now staffed by civilian contractors, with half-empty magazines; in the Ft. Hood massacre, city police provided the protection, see my comments, next:]

    I spoke to the East Valley Marines last night, retirees still active. Quite an honor, on the birthday of the Corps... They were not in favor of arming soldiers on a military base. Now that was a shocker. At least it was to me.

    They're completely used to having arms controlled by the command structure. They see it as proper, no problem with that, didn't connect being disarmed with the murderous assault by the jihadi whose name, unlike in the "news" media, deserves no mention here. There's a security force at a base that is armed and they support that, but which like the police, I pointed out, are only minutes away when seconds matter.

    They felt if soldiers were armed there'd be trouble, because they get angry, and get drunk, and basically, they didn't trust themselves or the system to simply be armed as a routine matter.

    So how did they feel about civilians carrying firearms with the freedom everyone should have? Mixed bag. They certainly didn't connect the civilian Second Amendment model with being in the service. A friend said they are so dependent on the government for so long, they're not freedom-conscious like some of us out here are.

    They were not fully comfortable with the idea of Constitutional Carry. To say they were, as a lot, regimented, would be accurate. Wonderful guys, but they are cut from a common cloth, and that includes when you get back from the front lines and go to the rear, you turn over your weapons until you need them again. The unarmed victim zone of Ft. Hood, well, they didn't see it that way, focused much more intensely on why government didn't identify and remove the Muslim warrior who perpetrated the atrocity.

    I asked, do they think they're vulnerable to this in the future? That didn't move them any closer to the right to keep and bear arms, or the need to keep and bear arms, or anything related to having arms without the command structure saying OK. They stayed with finding these rascals and dealing with them in time... a good deal of anger over not dealing with this guy in time.

    So is another base vulnerable to this sort of assault? They didn't think so (but they didn't convince me very well, but what do I know). And you should have seen the animus when they started in about how under Clinton, with the downsizing, protection of the gates was farmed out under contract to private firms! Yes, that's right, not a big secret but not widely remembered (except by them) -- the front gates are staffed by civilians, not military personnel. They didn't sit well with that, and I'm being nice about it.
  2. Mountainman

    Mountainman Großes Mitglied Site Supporter+++

    I find it deeply disturbing that Marines would think this way. What are they doing these days to brainwash them?
  3. dragonfly

    dragonfly Monkey+++

    Not good...!
  4. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    There are a lot of idiots in the military -and I only say this because I speak from experience. If they 'were' allowed to carry, I guarantee you that there would be a metric ton of problems. It will never happen, so this is a moot point. Soldiers only have weapons and ammo in the battle zone, they are treated like 10 year old children when it comes to safety procedures, and even then there are instances of negligent discharge.
  5. dragonfly

    dragonfly Monkey+++

    I can see your point in that!
    As I recall, there were some dangerous "space cases" in the military...in and out of war zones!
    Alcohol and drugs only made it worse.....!
  6. jim2

    jim2 Monkey+++

    Part of the reason these soldiers can't be trusted with firearms is BECAUSE of the military training and mentality. No ammo ever unless on the firing line, and no hot zones makes for some dangerous and careless people. At the very least officers and senior NCO's (at the commander's descretion) should be armed at all times. There are people that can be trusted, and if only 1% of the military is armed, then that is a lot more than is armed now or was armed for the Ft. Hood shooting.

    The individual should accept responsibility for any AD's and mistakes, and those mistakes should NOT be a career ender for the OIC. The whole system is set up to make people helpless and controlled. The military wants tigers on the front lines and house cats in the barracks. Warriors are too difficult for a wimpy substandard officer or NCO to deal with. I continually chaffed under the restrictions built for dealing with honorless wretches and was more or less treated like a 10 year old most of the time until an emergency occured when "taking care of business" was needed pdq. Then I got the free hand to deal with matters at hand. I guess that's why I liked Recon so much. We were illegally armed most of the time, and someone always had something at hand.

    The military HQ needs to get with the program and set things straight.

  7. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Exactly right, Jim. +1

    I have seen good NCO's pretty much stripped of rank and sent home because of an ND due to ridiculous standards which makes soldiers get down on one knee, point the weapon in a barrel, drop magazine, eject round, and then DRY FIRE to be certain. Only thing is, if you dry fire and a round was in the chamber -it is still an ND. If you don't have friends on watch that day, it is a career ender for sure. I have seen an NCO get in a hurry clearing his truck, left his weapon at the barrel only to be found 30 minutes later by another team...and he never even got yelled at. Why? Well, he was a minority and our CSM on the COP (yes we had BN on our COP, which technically makes it a FOB) was a brotha, so no can do. Double standards ruin high standards, and ridiculous rules makes it hard to get these guys back in from a mission without making mistakes. I have been on three 8 hour missions in a day followed by 2 hours of rest and start up all over again...these clearing procedures are WAY too over-thought, and just plain ignorant. We can watch SF troops, Iraqi forces, and private security clear their own weps in the vehicle while they roll and never have a problem -but our own BN (high ranking) soldiers will somehow manage to carry a loaded M4 into the PX and ND while shopping for underwear (it has happened). And the idiot show continues.
  8. BAT1

    BAT1 Cowboys know no fear

    Remember our soldiers come from Socialist mind laundries...Schools.
  9. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    That has very little if anything to do with the topic of discussion. I can only speak for myself, but there are also quite a few other vets on this board who will agree with me when I say that it all comes down to personal discipline and common decency -two critical areas our modern soldiers are lacking.

    The new doctrine being schooled are the "core values" which must be memorized and repeated endlessly in a futile attempt to turn poor trash into saints; that is only a blanket generalization to illustrate the overall effect and not an accurate description. Because the military enlists many who could not have qualified for service previously, because the "core values" are drilled into their minds, and because these young men never came into the service with any of these values to begin with -the inevitable is just what we witness. Thieves in the military. Rapists. Liars. Thugs. Drug dealers. Gangs. These punks will not change their ways from being trained in a watered down, friendly basic training, and they certainly do not pay attention and obey the values being forced upon them.

    Not every service member is like this. My point is, that their numbers are steadily on the rise. And thus, the standards in our military are constantly declining.
  10. HOP

    HOP Monkey+++

    I retired out of Ft. Hood in 1987 after serving my last 4 years there and lived in Killeen for 17 years after that , I did all my hunting and fishing there and though hand guns were not allowed for hunting you could take them to the Sportsmans range any time it was open. A few years before 911 there was a requirement to register any firearm you brought on the post for legitimate purposes and you had to show your registration when using firearms. After 911 There were and still are check points at all entrances to the main contonement area and you are subject to search but it is random.
    If a solider wanted to go on a rampage all they would have to do is get a magizine and ammo then go to the armsroom of their unit and request to clean the weapon and presto armed disgruntaled employee.
    On Yahoo this morning I see where the government is investigating t and plan to press charges on various supervisors of the Terrorist gunman but he is still awaiting the court system.
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