Gender - Biological or Social

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by RightHand, Aug 23, 2013.

  1. RightHand

    RightHand Been There, Done That RIP 4/15/21 Moderator Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Earlier today, I was listening to a radio discussion of Bradley/Chelsea Mannings request that we, as taxpayers, pay for his transgender hormone therapy while incarcerated in a military facility deeming it a medical issue. He has not previously undergone this "treatment" and at present, is not seeking surgical gender reassignment intervention.

    The discussion centered mainly on Mannings request to be referred to as "she." Most of the discussion participants voiced the opinion that gender is more of a social assignment than a biological one and a person can chose whatever gender they want.

    This would be an enormous surprise to my high school biology teacher who was pretty adamant that females have XX chromosomes and males XY. There are certainly genetic mis-steps such as XXY hermaphrodites but short of that, feeling female or male is not, in my mind, a sufficient reason for expending the many, many thousands of taxpayer dollars required to tip the hormonal scale.

    "Sworn Virgins" can be found in Albania where certain females take a sworn vow of celibacy and live their lives, culturally, as men. There are not hormone additives involved, merely dressing and working as a male. And, this is usually because of the patralineal nature of the society rather than "feelings" so there is an economic basis for the decision - and it IS a decision. ** See note below

    What say you monkeys?

    1. Is gender a matter of biology or social assignment?

    2. If the AMA has ruled that homosexuality is not a medical issue requiring treatment, should gender confusion be accepted as a medical problem? I doubt if many transgender people would agree they need treatment, merely intervention.

    3. Should Manning's request for "treatment" be honored?

    ** Note:
    A woman becomes a sworn virgin by swearing an irrevocable oath, in front of 12 village or tribal elders, to practice celibacy. Then she is allowed to live as a man. She will then be able to dress in male clothes, use a male name, carry a gun, smoke, drink alcohol, take on male work, act as the head of a household (for example, living with a sister or mother), play music and sing, and sit and talk socially with men.[4][8][9]
    A woman can become a sworn virgin at any age, either to satisfy her parents or herself.[10]
    The sworn virgin is believed to be the only formal, socially defined female-to-male cross-gender and cross-dressing role in Europe. Similar practices occur in some native American tribes in North America.[8]
    Breaking the vow was once punishable by death, but it is doubtful that this punishment is still carried out now.[4] Many sworn virgins today still refuse to go back on their oath because their community would reject them for breaking the vows.[4] However it is sometimes possible to take back the vows if the sworn virgin has finished her obligations to the family and the reasons/motivations (see below) which enabled her to take the vows are no longer current
  2. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    1) Biology.

    2) Medical problem, maybe, if psychiatry is truly medical and not a swami like interpretation. (My personal jury is still out on that.)

    3) Hell, no!!

    To add, if he wants to be known as Chelsea, he can go to court for a name change come along end of sentence service. In the meantime Brad, honor your parents' name choice by keeping it.
    3M-TA3, kellory, tacmotusn and 5 others like this.
  3. VHestin

    VHestin Farm Chick

    My 2 cents are as follows:

    Gender roles: Yes they are socially based. "Roles" in this terminology refers to things such as "Who is gonna take out the trash?"

    Gender functions: Biologically based, as in reproduction.
    3M-TA3, Brokor and mysterymet like this.
  4. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    I have not seen nor heard of a case involving gender conflicts in third world tribes where social constructs such as corporate media, federal education programs and psychological conditioning do not exist. Whenever we are faced with questions such as this, which conflict with the logical and traditional foundations of a society, it may prove beneficial to reduce the problem to its most basic elements first.

    A native tribe must function within a defined set of parameters in order to facilitate its survival; if a single element of a tribe falls beyond the basic outline and function, the conclusion often leads to a breakdown in cohesion and possibly death. Imagine, if you will, a tribe comprised of men and women (biologically), each serving a function. One day, a woman in the tribe started feeling more than a woman and decides to share with the others that "she" is simply now a "he", and would like to perform that role in the tribe. Well, you tell me the answer. There is no social construct in a tribe which fulfills the needs of gender reversal, since the primary (biological) objective of man and woman is to reproduce. Although the role of an individual can vary as is needed in a tribe, a woman could take on the responsibilities of a man by hunting and defending the village. One should ask, does this role actually change the gender? The problem we face is not the value of the role, nor in what socially defines a man or a woman, but the purpose of our biological limitations --the actual, physical aspect of our nature. If we are neither a man or a woman, but merely whatever we "think" we are to be, how then can we explain our physical appearance and our biological parts? The question may seem absurd, and that's because it is absurd. No tribe is going to function in such a way, because it operates along a very basic level which is rooted in survival. Typically, these modern, decadent and absurd ramblings are only prevalent in a culture such as ours, where we have grown complacent and indifferent and have forgotten about surviving in nature. We live in homes with heat and air conditioning, we drive cars and work at a job to make money so we can spend it on useless junk to put in our homes because we are empty inside and lack a true purpose. Eventually, even our basic biological function is questioned because we sit around hypothesizing matters of no real importance because we do not serve a valuable purpose. We can apply for a license from our masters to marry each other, and those who wish to marry the same gender can protest to receive the same form of voluntary slavery. We can watch countless hours of mind-numbing blood soaked horror on television, but must chance being discovered and ridiculed for daring to watch two humans of opposite sex making love in the nude. Traditional sex is taboo in our society, and nudity is extremely censored, but violent action and murder on the big screen is prime time viewing. The minds of a people in the year 2013 are inundated with subliminal suggestion, and each one of them has been plugged into the matrix since birth. They eat foods which can be equated to being a chemical lobotomy, often laced with hormones they don't need, and drink genetically modified energy drinks brimming with poisonous chemicals because it's cool. Our children attend social indoctrination known as schooling, and there they are programmed to receive gender reversal education and the acceptance of State power and group think mentality. While both parents of a "traditional" family unit are too busy working to support their lifestyle, the cure for non-compliance in a child is often medication prescribed for the well being of their offspring. They grow to become what society molds them to be, free to choose from whatever pile of dung they have been offered --it certainly must feel like freedom to such a baseless creature.

    Most people with emotional problems and issues of gender identification have more problems than just what to do with their penis or vagina.
  5. Mindgrinder

    Mindgrinder Karma Pirate Ninja|RIP 12-25-2017

  6. VHestin

    VHestin Farm Chick

    That reminds me of a Sherlock Holmes story, when in one scene Dr. Watson is excited after reading an article about the discovery that the sun doesn't revolve around the Earth, but Earth revolves around it, and he starts gushing to Holmes about it, and (paraphrasing here obviously)Holmes' response is basically Who gives a crap?, and Watson is stunned by the lack of interest, and then Holmes goes on to say that it doesn't change any circumstances of his life, so why bother with it?

    Also reminds me of a 'conversation' on Facebook where someone made a comment about farmers being close/narrow-minded with no culture, and my reply was that farming is no easy occupation. You breathe/eat/sleep it, all year round. 'Culture' is not going to harvest their crops or wipe their butts.
  7. NotSoSneaky

    NotSoSneaky former supporter

    1. Biological. Crossing traditional gender roles can be socially acceptably within some cultures, others, notsomuch.

    2. Interesting argument. Gay men don't want any kind of surgery to either make them straight or gayer. Same goes for lesbians, not that I am knowledgeable about what drives either to be what / whom they are. Transgenderd folks on the other hand seem to need some kind of body modification in order to identify with whatever gender they identify with so I'm gonna hafta say "Medical" on this one. Medical technology has come a looooong way in the past 50 years. The human brain is the single most complex organ sometimes wire get crossed.

    I'm very much a "live and let live" kinda guy I really don't care if a person is straight, gay, lesbian or transgendered. I don't go around asking or gossiping on this or most other subjects.

    3. NO! If Manning wants a sex re assignment, let him pay for it like every one else.
    tulianr, Brokor and RightHand like this.
  8. Ajax

    Ajax Monkey++

    Of course it is a matter of biology, there are very specific and real biological differences between men and women.

    This in no way shape or form should be paid for by taxpayer money.
  9. Mindgrinder

    Mindgrinder Karma Pirate Ninja|RIP 12-25-2017

  10. DarkLight

    DarkLight Live Long and Prosper - On Hiatus

    Not to make light of the situation or your questions but in the current environment, it doesn't matter. As long as the individual "feels" a certain way, we are to accept it and expected to enable whatever that feeling is. If we do otherwise we are racist/homophobic/intolerant/socially backwards...whatever.

    In the current environment, if someone "feels" something, they are entitled to the remedy, many times at no cost to themselves:

    I'm a victim, I'm entitled to reparations.
    I'm gay, I'm entitled to equal (although they aren't asking for equal) rights.
    Ignore my genetics (XX or XY), I'm transgender, I'm entitled to have this operation...and insurance must cover it.

    But to answer your questions:
    1) Gender is a matter of biology. How we treat each gender, whether different or the same, is a matter of society.
    2) No, if anything it's a mental...issue. I won't call it a problem and I'm not saying they are mentally defective or deficient. I'm not even saying they don't identify with the other gender...that doesn't change point 1. Going back to what you originally posted, being a "sworn virgin" doesn't actually change anything other than the person's "classification" in society. No operations, no pills, no hormone therapy, no making an outie and inie or vice versa. And just because the AMA has ruled on something doesn't, in my mind, close the matter. How many people on the AMA board that "ruled" on homosexuality are Lesbian/Gay/Bi/Transgender/Questioning? That would be an interesting footnote...
    3) No. He's a man. He may not enjoy being a man but no amount of surgery or "treatment" will change his Y-chromosome to an least not with today's technology.

    Let me be clear, however, that I am not anti-lesbian, anti-gay, anti-bi-sexual, anti-transgender and I couldn't care less if you are questioning. I work with someone who is transgender and work with (probably more than I know) several gay and lesbian people. My company is in that regard. I DO have a problem with someone...ANYONE, "requiring" me to accept their lifestyle. I don't. I live with it and generally don't care, but get out of my face with it. Don't try to get special treatment because you're "different" and don't try to make me change my beliefs/standards to accept you and what you do if I don't agree with it.
  11. Mindgrinder

    Mindgrinder Karma Pirate Ninja|RIP 12-25-2017

    I didn't know Obama was gay...

    Skip to 1 minute in for testimony...
  12. RightHand

    RightHand Been There, Done That RIP 4/15/21 Moderator Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Mindgrinder likes this.
  13. ColtCarbine

    ColtCarbine Monkey+++ Founding Member

    ....... .
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
  14. Ganado

    Ganado Monkey+++

    1) Biology: this is a combination of physical parts, chromosomes and hormonal chemistry.
    We can yell about people and their 'feelings' all we want but if you receive cross signals from your chemistry it isn't easy to know what the heck you are.
    There was a role in tribal societies for 'two sprit' infividuals. @Brokor @RightHand mentioned that in the original post.
    The Native American's had a place for 'two spirited' individuals. Two-Spirit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    2) Medical ? yes and no but the issue is more about self acceptance. Gender isn't black and white. We all start female and then differentiate in the womb. Some transformations are more complete than others.

    When did it become 'bad' to be different? When did complete conformity become mandatory for human survival? The book 'Outliers' is about people who were different and out of those differences you get human advancements and brilliance. Give me 'outliers' every time if it means the world has the possibility of change. Gender confusion a ridiculous word for lack of self acceptance. The world isn't black and white. Take the pain (or whatever you call it) of being different and do something extraordinary!

    3) No. Just because we can do things medically doesn't mean we should. And just because you want it doesn't mean everyone else should pay for what you want.
    Mindgrinder likes this.
  15. Mindgrinder

    Mindgrinder Karma Pirate Ninja|RIP 12-25-2017

    i'm studying Shapiro debate tactics...
    "Mental illness." "Gender Identity Disorder" is the best argument...
    Observe how it's 'ok' for a transgender buff (fe)male to threaten a little jew man....
    "you'll go home in an ambulance...."
    Then later accuse him of "hate speech" for stating FACTS not FEELINGS.
    All libs vrs him and he tanks them quite well....
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2015
    Brokor, Ganado and 3M-TA3 like this.
  16. Gator 45/70

    Gator 45/70 Monkey+++

    Manning should man up and have his on stick shift cut off.
    Like the John Wayne poster say's
    You don't have a woman
    You have a guy who cut his pecker off.
    Ganado likes this.
  17. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    "Two-Spirited": The term was adopted in 1990 at an Indigenous lesbian and gay international gathering to encourage the replacement of the anthropological term berdache. In 1990, it gained widespread popularity during the third annual inter-tribal Native American/First Nations gay and lesbian conference in Winnipeg.
    Before the late twentieth-century, non-Native (i.e. non-Native American/Canadian) anthropologists used the generic term berdache /bərˈdæʃ/ to identify an indigenous individual fulfilling one of many mixed gender roles in their tribe, but that term has now fallen out of favor.

    Again, modern society is sick.
    Ganado likes this.
  18. AxesAreBetter

    AxesAreBetter Monkey+++

    I can tell you historically, in Europe, there is no "Gender Role" in terms of what Career options you have. Despite what you have heard (media), I would like to point out Norse "Shield-Maidens", who are Viking Raids who are female. There is also a more specific case, documenting a COMMON practice, of the wife of the "official armsmaker" of the King of England, then run from the Tower of London, running the armsmaking for the Royal household for a solid HANDFUL of years while her husband was at war, as well as overseeing the armament stockpiles of the realm, as per her husbands job description and title.

    What most modern, 1rst world countries do not understand is that historically, it takes too much time to develop the skill set of the "opposite modern-perceived gender role". And since a man cannot have babies, and formula wasn't invented until recently (rant for another day), it only makes since for the ladies to know how to handle "domestic duties" in a more primary role. For the male part, learning to hunt, fish, create all of your own equipment, AND find the time each day to do all of that, not to mention the years it takes to be good at fighting, and you have some context.

    As for being "gay" or not, it ain't my place. There is ample evidence across the board of it being a real thing, and enough historical evidence for it to be repeatedly brought up in all of the holy text we have. That tends toward the side of empirical data, regardless of personal thoughts or feelings on the subject.
    kellory and Ganado like this.
  19. TXKajun

    TXKajun Monkey+++

    What amazes and baffles me is the number of M2F trannies that go for girls.......become lesbian. Why can't they like girls when they are male?

    Cruisin Sloth and Ganado like this.
  20. Rocky Road Lerp

    Rocky Road Lerp Monkey+++

    TomWaitsMoneyAndGuns. If John wants to be Jane it doesn't make him a bad guy. Really doesn't make him a guy at all. But that's none of my business. Just don't force your choice of lifestyle down my throat, morally, or financially. We live in a granola bowl full of fruits, nuts, and flakes. When people live without a purpose I think lines get blurred. Me,me, I want, I need! Bunch 'a self-centered, egocentric, B.S., ultimately breaking down our society into a lawless pile of dung. And when the funds get low, the guns will blow until new management is installed. Then, the process will start all over. The Roman empire, the Greeks, etc. Society is is destined to implode.
    Ganado, techsar, Brokor and 3 others like this.
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