going around in circles, please advise...

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by OzarkSaints, Mar 7, 2010.

  1. OzarkSaints

    OzarkSaints Monkey++

    hey fellas, this is probably a pretty wierd question, but me and the family are just spinning our mental wheels here trying to figure out the best option here....any thoughts would be very helpful

    I am very successful at my job and have more than a few offers...where our land is back in the Ozarks there is zero work for me though...so we are looking to scrap that and decide on a new place to live permanantly which would also serve as a long term survival area....it is me and the wife and a 20 month old daughter.....

    so I know everyone has there preferences as to weather, etc. and so do we, but we are interested in survivability as the main preference in choosing....our main concerns are earthquake/volcanoes and economic collapse....and we would find it greatly beneficial to have the land we live on and our survival land be the same place......so with that in mind....

    1) Oklahoma--we are here currently in OKC, have a good paying job situation that I find tolerable but not overly palatable, gun laws are great and so are self defense and home schooling laws.....the most ideal land is about 3 to 4 hours drive towards the SE and the work situation would not allow me to commute in from that distance (an hour or so commute would be fine though)....that land is cheap, tons of wildlife, 50 inches of rain a year, average of 15 people per square mile in the county, and much much less out in the sticks.........area has a high population of very low income backwoods poacher types, which I like and relate to, but not sure how that would play out in a grid down collapse situation, especially since I would be the outsider/new guy

    2) Alaska--very, very good job offer in Anchorage.....gun/defense/home school laws are perfect.....we love cold weather.......we would commute in from out in the sticks, so we would have a drive, but we would be able to live on the homestead hacienda.....there economy is great......lots of potential bad though...there are a virtual ****ton on volcanoes....earthquakes are a constant....there is literally only 1 road whatsoever out of Anchorage to get to where we would be living....obviously the cold weather is a life hreatening hazard in SHTF collapse (and the moose and bears too).....on the other hand, there are areas of hardly any population to worry about

    3) Albany NY--the best job offer imaginable (as in 100% perfect) being my own boss with zero responsibilities other than to show up whenever I want and do what I love and make great money and do it around friends who look up to my work, and respect me.....gun laws are bad and defense laws are horrible.....population is by far the highest of the 3 choices.....however, NW Maine is filled with cheap unpopulated woods that I love, and would be roughly an 8 hour drive to the area I would be interested in buying property.....within 1 year I could have enough clientele to move to the property in Maine and just drive in and work 2 days and stay overnight in Albany and be more than fine financially (economy pending, of course)...Maine has good gun/defense/home school laws.......the population density up where we would buy property is real good and low, but there is a universe worth of population all along the coast that concerns us greatly......it is also a sickeningly Liberal region of the country

    I realize everybody has there druther's, but any and ALL thoughts would be extremely appreciated as we are quickly nearing a decision timeline in order to not be rude to any of the makers of 2 of the offers...also, I know there are Monkeys here from all over the country that might have some valuable insight into the areas that I do not yet have....i.e. some of you fellas in OK might know of areas that would be perfect and be commutable from OKC; etc.....any thoughts would help me to look at things from a new angle..........thanks for your time
  2. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member


    But just an off the top of my head question: What makes you wary of earthquakes/volcanoes in these other areas? None of these places are like Cali for earthquakes and I live almost centrally triangulated between 3 volcanoes and never think much about it. (volcanoes rarely sneak up on you, people are always watching/reporting them)

    Earthquakes are the worst when you live in a concrete jungle which I very much doubt your possible spot in AK would be.

    I have made a personal decision not to live in places that do not allow my gun choices. That said, CA and NY are out for me. I also have class III stuff and would not move to a state that wouldn't let me bring that.

    If I had a decent gig in AK, I'd be all over it.
  3. OzarkSaints

    OzarkSaints Monkey++

    thanks Melbo.....my concern about quakes/volcanoes just stems from the unbelievably constant quake activity in Alaska and the multitude of volcanoes there....I wasn't even aware of it until I started keeping tabs on the weather up there in different areas and the quake report kept coming up alongside the weather.....just listing all of my concerns is all.....like I said, there is such a huge cross section of knowledgeable people on here that I figure someone might know a ton more than I do about some things in particular
  4. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    Me too, worked up there for two winters, loved it, will go back some day to live there.
    I believe Alaska has the highest amount of earth quakes a year, they are just small ones.
  5. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    Earthquakes: It seems like you can find 200 quakes within 300 miles of me on any week if you watch the quake reports. I don't live or work or drive in vertical structures so i don't even think about them.

    This is my opinion only but I wouldn't worry about earthquakes unless you were around the San Andreas or the New Madrid in the US.
  6. Old Sarge

    Old Sarge Old Sarge

    I'd have to opt for Alaska, as well. I spent 3 years in Fairbanks area. The weather is much more radical there than down in the "banana belt" as we referred to Anchorage.
    There during the big quake, as well. It's a good life, people are friendly, and economy is probably better than in Okie City.
    As for the place in the Ozarks. I'd hang on to it. Real estate is always a good investment. We live due east of you a ways, in the Ozarks, and you are correct about jobs availabilities. What ones are available, pay zilch.
    Fortunatey, we are retired, and we love this area. To each his own, gotta do whatcha gotta do.
  7. fireplaceguy

    fireplaceguy Monkey+

    Been there (circles, that is) and my first recommendation is purely humorous; change your direction of rotation now and then to even out tire wear!

    You have a real quandary. I'm still in Colorado and am looking to escape while it's still legal to leave. I love Alaska and agree with all the sentiments expressed here, but have a giant concern: I don't know how conversant you are with peak oil theory, or if you subscribe. I am well versed, and believe peak has arrived. There's no real way to be sure of this except in hindsight, and even that is complicated by the fact that many oil producing countries are dishonest about reserves, including the US.

    Anyway, my operating premise is that the economy is being managed downward (duh!) to deliberately destroy demand for oil on a curve ahead of declining production. This is in order to maintain control. If I'm correct, that certainly confirms peak!

    My concern about Alaska is this: At some point transportation and trade is
    just about guaranteed to break down, and Alaska is at the far end of a very long supply chain. Couple that with the resulting lousy economy and short growing season and life could become really harsh.

    There are plenty of areas where the population density is low enough that the flora and fauna would likely not be depleted by foraging. I'd sure locate there from day one, and would make a point of encouraging the edible wild plants native to the area and incorporating them into my food storage and diet.

    I would have to be much better funded than I am to consider Alaska, as I would need near perfect infrastructure and a deep wide pantry to be at all comfortable living at the far end of that supply chain. I'd want the resources to get things set up FAST, too, as more than one kind of depletion (doesn't matter if it's currency or oil production that goes first) takes out trade and reliable transportation. But Alaska would be paradise if you were well enough equipped!

    For me, population density and composition (the high Quisling Quotient) eliminates New York/New England. Add in metastatic government, the ridiculously high taxes and the fact that you have a kid to school...

    So, I'm looking in Oklahoma, Missouri and Arkansas myself, and am actually driving through again in a few weeks on another search. Temperate climate and abundant water are biggies, as is the relatively low cost of government. Despite being a white collar suburban kid, I grew up to actually GET liberty, so I identify with and get along with with the backwoods poacher types myself. (I know several here in Colorado and actually just returned from one's daughter's 7th birthday party last night!)
    Not sure how they'd be as neighbors in an utter collapse, but being around folks like that would sure beat living in a suburban subdivision. You ought to be able to locate next to some productive ag parcels where you'd find that same attitude combined with a (potentially) better set of ethics.

    Fact is, though, some people wherever you are will go feral pretty if society has collapsed and they're starving. It's a very short intellectual/moral leap from our current economic cannibalism to the real thing. Just add a dash of hunger, simmer briefly and you're there!

    Regardless of where you live, you seem concerned about weather and natural disasters (with good reason) and even if you stay put in OK there are always tornadoes and your relative proximity to the New Madrid fault, which could always let loose with another Mississippi flows backwards deal breaker. If you haven't seen this before, I would like to recommend an earth sheltered building system that I consider almost ideal for a survivalist and which would answer all your disaster concerns regardless of where you move. Perhaps the option of building something like this will eliminate enough concerns to make your decision easier: [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]www.earthshelter.com[/FONT]

    These arched structures are simple to build, insanely strong, require extremely low energy inputs to be comfortable year round, need little maintenance over a multi-generational life cycle, are highly secure and are impervious to earthquakes, tornadoes and other natural and man-made events of concern to survivalists.

    If you ended up in Alaska, the advantages of this construction would only be magnified. You could heat the place year-round on just a cord or two of wood - a huge advantage should things get crunchy. (You wouldn't want to spend your short growing season cutting the eight cords of wood you'd need to heat a conventional home - by hand, when the grid's down!) You could even configure one of these buildings as a greenhouse and have an extended growing season that wouldn't require fuel. An expensive greenhouse, but worth it up there.

    In a temperate climate like Oklahoma the interior temp would hover in the 60's year round with just the heat from cooking and bathing. (This building concept solves SO many problems for survivalists.) I plan to build the open-end 32' model with an ICF front wall.

    I hope something I said helped a little, but realize I may have just pushed you along faster in your circle. None of us can be anything more than a sounding board and well wisher. This is something you two will have to figure out for yourselves, and I hope you reach a strong consensus before you uproot.
  8. fortunateson

    fortunateson I hate Illinois Nazis!

    I've thought this over and over again, so let me lay my concerns on you. Maybe they're applicable.

    I don't see living away from your retreat, then bugging out as being much of an option. If things get so bad, that it's not safe to stay in your home, how will you make it to your retreat? Highways have historically (going back to biblical times) been dangerous. It will most certainly turn back to that in a SHTF scenario - quickly.

    I'd strike OK for this reason.

    AK - everything fireplace guy said. Also, how often will your road out of Anchorage actually be passable?

    Albany - Now growing up, that was the "country" to me. Looks like Maine would give you the same type of bugout problem. What about living in the Adirondacks? Could you find less populated land out there and still commute? I don't honestly know. It's been years since I've been there. I hear what you're saying about politics / taxation, etc.
    But here's a thought going back to ol' Harry Browne. You're basically as free as you let yourself be. If you have a big enough piece of land, who's going to know what you're doing? I really think we're entering into an age where people will just start doing whatever the hell they want anyway. Don't get me wrong, this is NOT good! But when the government creates a maze of laws with the sole purpose of "getting you" any time or any where (think 30,000 gun laws / IRS, etc.) your freedom is no longer protected and respected. In that environment, people will just take it by doing whatever they please. And hey, if TSHTF it's guaranteed.
    Not diminishing your concerns. They're very valid indeed. Just something to chew on.
  9. OzarkSaints

    OzarkSaints Monkey++

    thanks fellas!

    We actually just got back a few minutes ago from a very interesting day of property searching in SE OK; found a very remote 8 acres, zero utilities available and cheap, the house above it up the hill is the only other house on that road and has no electric. We asked an older couple who were driving around on their Mule hunting cart thing for directions, and it turned out the real estate guy had the name of the lake wrong that we were suppossed to turn at, so they told us to follow them home and they took us up to their house and pulled out the plat map, then drove us out to the property in their truck, handed me a coupla beers and gave the wife and kid some sodas, introduced us to the other main land owner up there....turns out the couple owns over 2000 (yup, correct number of zeros) acres which is intermittently spread out on 3 sides of the 8 acres, 648 hogs, they lease out most of their acres to family that have cattle, and their sons are both building houses on the road they are on for themselves and their families, plus the aforementioned lake is theirs as well. They said that ya can't get a good well there, but that they only had pond and cisterns until 18 years ago when rural water finally became available, average rainfall is between 43 and 47 inches....and they locked all their land to where it can't be sold or split for 17 years (not sure if they meant 17 years from now, or after they pass) so that the grandkids can take it if they want it.....really awesome kinda people that they just don't seem to make anymore....even hugged our daughter goodbye when we left after visiting for prolly close to an hour and a half.

    Sarge, about that land in the Ozarks....yup, with just under 3 acres with 3 sides fenced, 2 wells, electric, hog pen and walk-in chicken coop, a garage on a concrete slap plus a wood shed, national scenic riverway and forest a few miles away and a bunch of Amish neighbors and taxes just 27 bucks a year, we are holding on to it!!!

    FPG.....thanks for your time and your thoughts bud, seriously. I agree that Alaska would be ideal IF one had the time to get set up right (and we very well might have plenty of time, like you said, hindsight will tell).....but I would hate to be there and have things go to **** before being ready for them to do so. And you are correct, earthshelter homes are actually the only kind of homes that make any kind of sense at all...would they actually work in Alaska though, or would you get into the frostline? Shoot me an PM if ya'd like, and let me know what all your criteria is and whatnot for acreage, and I'll let ya know if I have found anything that sounds like what you are looking for!
  10. fireplaceguy

    fireplaceguy Monkey+

    PM sent. Congrats on the land you found - it sounds just about ideal!

    I haven't looked into building an earth sheltered home up in Alaska. I'd guess you'd need to cover it with more dirt, and insulate it better as well. (More dirt probably wouldn't be a problem, as the structure is strong enough you can drive the bulldozer on top of it to move dirt around!) I don't know anything about water tables, froslines or any other issues peculiar to Alaska. Since I can't afford to live there, I haven't looked into it that far!
  11. OzarkSaints

    OzarkSaints Monkey++

    oh, we haven't decided for sure if we are gonna take the land yet, but we are definitly leaning in that direction.....heading out the door to work (2nd shift), I will get ahold of ya tonight, thanks again
  12. OzarkSaints

    OzarkSaints Monkey++

    FS......thanks bud, the Adirondacks is certainly gorgous, but if we go that route, I am thinking maybe Vermont would have something commutable.......taxes are outragous, but at least you can carry concealed without any kind of a license!
  13. Hispeedal2

    Hispeedal2 Nay Sayer

    OK would be a safe bet.

    AK would be as well. If you are interested in AK, get the video and book about Dick Proenneke. He homesteaded there with nothing more than some hand tools for the better part of his life. Very interesting story. I wouldn't worry about the cold... fuel is everywhere there. Just have a good stove. Have a bug in plan and you should be fine.
  14. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    You may want to check out this thread.


    The book "Startegic Relocation" is an invaluable resource. And actually S.E. Okla and Western Arkansas is rated in the top 5 areas for short and long time survival. The Oauchita Mountains area is one of the best places to be. The only downside is that it is a magnet for suburbanites from Dallas, Little Rock, etc.
    Property prices in the area skyrocketed pre-Y2K due to all the big city folks buying land there. In a TEOTWAWKI world expect massive migrations of refugees to the area.
    But other than that it has many pros. In proximity to nuclear targets and in fallout patterns it is one of the best places in the country. With a temperate climate and a good distance from any major fault lines.
  15. OzarkSaints

    OzarkSaints Monkey++

    lol.....yup, Dick Proenneke is quite possibly the reason I have always wanted to go to AK since as far back as I can remember remembering.

    MM...thanks bud, I had never even heard of those books, but they are now ordered and I can't wait to get 'em in....my only real concern with the SE is just exactly the aforementioned fact that they are situated smack dab in the middle of DFW/OKC/Tulsa/Ft Smith/Little Rock....obviously, no place will ever be perfect though.

    As always, I appreciate y'alls help......and for an update, here is the situation as it now stands:

    AK....we will not consider moving there unless we have enough cash in hand to set up the way we would need to right off of the bat.

    OK and NY.....I really don't think when I get back up there and really take a look around again that I will find a place suitable, so I am accepting an offer here in OKC that will allow me to completely be my own boss and simply sub-lease from an existing biz and work out of there. so it'll be a definite pay cut UNTIL I get clientele established, at that point it would be an incalculably tremendous pay increase......and while doing so (building clientele), I will be going out to NY working in the same situation but with plenty of clientele, and looking around for suitable land at the same time.
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