Got a new toy...

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by ColtCarbine, Dec 7, 2008.


  1. ColtCarbine

    ColtCarbine Monkey+++ Founding Member

    and a pistol but only had enough daylight to get in a little shooting. My main goal was to see how well I shot the Loaded Springer, not that I'm that good of a shot with pistols. Seems to be where I'm lacking the most, I just don't have a very steady aim with pistols. Nor the patience it takes to be a good target shooter, more of a hurry up and shoot. I'm working on it though, maybe someday.

    With darkness starting to set in, I had to dump a couple mags through the Uzi before I couldn't see the front sight post. Obviously not a tack driver but definitely fun to shoot. [gun]

    Both guns were purchased just prior to the elections and finally had some free time to get to the range.

    What weight of bullet would give me the most accuracy out of a 1911?

    Same question on the Uzi?

    Thanks in advance.
    Justin2003_0101(019).JPG Justin2003_0101(016).JPG Justin2003_0101(021).JPG
     
  2. ColtCarbine

    ColtCarbine Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Like I said I'm not the best shot with pistols. Target is at 25 yds. using 230 gr TMJ reloads.
    Justin2003_0101(004).JPG
     
  3. gunbunny

    gunbunny Never Trust A Bunny

    Now all you need is a .45acp conversion for the UZI. A bolt, barrel, and grease gun lower setup and you are good to go. I've delt with Troy several times and he is a stand up guy: http://barrelxchange.com/index.html

    If you like the UZI in 9mm, you'll love it in .45! Especially when you have the 1911 along with you at the same time. Only your wallet will hurt...

    When I shoot 9mm in the UZI, we use 147gr rainier ballistics with 3.8gr of Unique. Subsonic loads that run fine. My wife's suppressor doesn't have any problems with the load. The UZI likes just about any 9mm that we've tried,but you might want to stay on the hotter sides of the loading tables; the UZI design can handle it.

    Particular accuracy for certain loads depends so much on the single gun itself. Especially since the UZI could be made by IMI, Group Ind, Vector (on a group or IMI reciever), Norinco (don't laugh- although not as cosmetically asthetic as an IMI or vector, they run well.), etc.

    .45ACP in the UZI, I use 230gr ball. The grease gun magazines are very long, and when full are pretty heavy, which helps tame recoil.
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  4. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    The most accurate load I have found for the .45acp is a 200 gr SWC with 5.6 grs of Winchester 321. This is around 850 fps and dead-on.
     
  5. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    I use 230 in my 1911's and have ahd great luck with Seacoboys load too
    My Uzi is 45acp and it loves them all the same......lol
    welcome to the uzi Club Colt.
     
  6. RouteClearance

    RouteClearance Monkey+++ Site Supporter

    200gr. SWC with 4gr. Hodgdon Clays, 1" groups at 25 yards rested from a HK USP Tactical.
     
  7. ColtCarbine

    ColtCarbine Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Only your wallet will hurt, no doubt I priced the 45 UZI mags [loco] Maybe someday I'll get to shoot one but no doubt I'm going to have to stick to 9mm for now. I see there is a 22lr conversion also but never did price the mags. I'll take your advise and get some heavier bullets, thank you makes sense. I can see this rifle being a lot of fun in FA. Yeah, I'd like to suppress mine one day along with my Sig 226, it's like you read my mind.

    As far as the manufacturer of mine, receiver is stamped IMI-Israel Model B 9mm Para imported by Action Arms, I'm told it's an early 80's import.
     
  8. gunbunny

    gunbunny Never Trust A Bunny

    Action Arms import? NICE.

    In my picture posted earlier, take a closer look at my Vector UZI. The lower grip is a modified MAC-10 grip that replaces the original 9mm lower with the removal of one pin. I use regular surplus grease gun magazines for a fraction of the cost of IMI .45ACP magazines.

    Along with a quick barrel swap, replacing the lower if needed (one pin), and changing the bolt out, it is ready to go in 9mm, 40 S&W, and .45ACP. When going from 9mm to .40S&W, a bolt change is not needed; .40 S&W will work fine with the 9mm bolt. I would recommend the grease gun lower for .40, as 9mm magazines tend to bind up on .40S&W.

    The UZI is great for modification, almost as much as an AR-15.
     
  9. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    Colt I have a few 16rd 45 Uzi mags they almost hurt to buy them.
     
  10. ColtCarbine

    ColtCarbine Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Thank you to all for the data on the 1911 loads, I need to get a reloader so this info will come in handy down the road.

    I haven't tried any pistol target shooting from a rested position yet. I have only practiced pistol shooting off hand and still need more practice, LOL!

    I'm curious how those with more training and/or experience than myself manage to keep the muzzle steady for off handed shooting, since that would most likely be the type of shooting encountered in a self defense situation. I'm sure most of my problems with accuracy has to do with trigger control and/or whether I'm pulling slightly to one side or the other. I could use a little coaching but don't have the funds at the moment to pony up for a training class. I know I can hit an aggressor in the chest region at 25 yds. I'd just like to be able to get more consistency at shot placement, instead of 3 shots here and 5 shots there. I could use somebody watching me shoot, so I know what I'm doing wrong or inconsistent. The target above was at 25 yds. off hand with reloads, as you can see not much consistency maybe some of it is the ammo but I'm guessing it's more me than the ammo.
     
  11. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    Send me a ticket, can coach. (Or come on out here.)

    Forget rested positions, they are useful for testing the gun only, not for anything else. For starters, you'll find that bringing the piece onto the target is steadiest in the first half second on the target, you don't have time before muscle tension gets you off POA. Get your squeeze going before it steadies out. It's funny how the experts shoot fast, isn't it? They KNOW this is so, scores often go up with speed. Try it dry a few times, it will be obvious that trying to steady out like a bench rest is futile.

    You can improve steady time with exercise. 16 oz stew cans work well for starters, work up to 5 lb sugar bags, one in each hand in a normal shooting stance, up, down and repeat until you can't get it up.

    Mess around with your grip, too, until you find a steady one that lets recoil go straight into your forearm, not the web between thumb and index finger. That is the one constant among the gurus, line the recoil up into the forearm. Helps greatly with recovery, only have to recover torque and vertical, horizontal becomes a non issue.

    There are a million different ideas of the "right" way. At the end, it's the one that works that counts. Most writing is aimed at folks that know nothing, and give a place to start as well as presenting the author's favorite way, not necessarily the one that will work for you.
     
  12. ColtCarbine

    ColtCarbine Monkey+++ Founding Member

     
  13. ColtCarbine

    ColtCarbine Monkey+++ Founding Member

    One of today's target that survived the rain, off handed at 25 yds. with a Sig P220

    and a little porn
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  14. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    I'll work on quicker target acquisition and better trigger control. I probably am doing something wrong in my trigger pull on the 1911 because I shoot the Sig P220 a little better, nothing to write home about but better. So, are you saying that the experts somewhat anticipate their shots.
    To a degree, I'm sure that is so. What they for sure have is muscle memory that allows for quick acquisition and a very smooth but continuous and fast trigger pull.
    You can improve steady time with exercise. 16 oz stew cans work well for starters, work up to 5 lb sugar bags, one in each hand in a normal shooting stance, up, down and repeat until you can't get it up. That will be interesting to try for sure, since I haven't shot left handed/eyed before. Good thing the only pistols that I have duplicates of are 22's, that could start to add up practicing.
    The accurate way is two handed, whether isosceles or Weaver or something else that uses two hands. The days of one handed shooting for accuracy or for combat are long gone. (Unless, of course, you wind up on a close encounter and one hand becomes less than useful.)
    Mess around with your grip, too, until you find a steady one that lets recoil go straight into your forearm, not the web between thumb and index finger. That is the one constant among the gurus, line the recoil up into the forearm. Helps greatly with recovery, only have to recover torque and vertical, horizontal becomes a non issue.
    I tried a different grip shooting the Sig today and got better results than before, so we'll see. I'm going to have to try it out on the 1911 also, if I can improve on the Sig. You probably have something in the recoil part because I shoot the Sig P226 better than the 45's, I wonder what I'm doing differently, it's not like I'm a weakling by no means.
    Something that gets missed by 1911 aficionadoes is that they are not the "right thing" for everyone. The handles are the same from dateline to dateline, pole to pole, and hands are not. Like a glove, if it doesn't fit, get rid of it --. Anyway, grip has a LOT to do with accuracy and repeatability. As used here, grip is both yours and the guns, they gotta match.
    There are a million different ideas of the "right" way. At the end, it's the one that works that counts. Most writing is aimed at folks that know nothing, and give a place to start as well as presenting the author's favorite way, not necessarily the one that will work for you.
    Are there any free downloads/videos available online that show these skills that you would recommend? There is so much out there to digest. I wouldn't have a clue as to who is preaching good basic handgun shooting skills?
    Dunno about any freebies, and don't have any that cost, either. My "knowledge" is gathered from shooting and reading. So far as reading goes, Cooper tells all about the art of the handgun in many places, and there are several others that have expounded in detail as well. Bear in mind that the written (or videoed, or whatever) words are starting places, not the be all end all for anyone except the authors. Don't even think of trying to follow a second master until you've managed the first, then see what the differences are. You will need to work it out, using their means and methods until you can find just the right difference that makes it work for you. You might try finding "The Expert's Guide to Rifle and Handgun Marksmanship" by Jim Casada. (Palaldin Press) He has several quotes and excerpts from the old masters that might be worth the reading.

    With all those recipes and reloading gear coming, you should be good to go with LOTS of practice, which is the only way to fly. That means bench time, a completely different discipline.

    seesaw
     
  15. RouteClearance

    RouteClearance Monkey+++ Site Supporter


    I regularly compete in the NRA bullseye shooting discipline at my club. 50 feet offhand single hand shooting. My best score so far has been a 79. The last person to score a "100" at this club was back in 1990.
    As for holding steady, you have to learn to trust your "wobble", belive me when I say that it is nearly impossible to hold steady at 50 feet, let alone any farther out. There are some members who have shot this discipline for over 30 years and their top score have never been over 97 out of a 100.
     
  16. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    From RC:
    "I regularly compete in the NRA bullseye shooting discipline at my club. 50 feet offhand single hand shooting. "

    Well, that blasts my knowledge claims away. I did NOT know one hand competition was alive and well. Looks like CC is going to have to practice one handed, too. [bow]
     
  17. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    Try finger placement for pulling side to side shots, move it in deeper or out and see if that tightens up for you.
     
  18. ColtCarbine

    ColtCarbine Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Hurt, more like WTF? Did these take a recent escalation in price also?

    $675 + shipping for 4 IMI .45acp 16 rd. mags

    http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/350601935/m/4401074641

    Well I guess that's better than the $200+ per mag on Gunbroker

    $225 per New IMI 16 rd. mag

    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=118278058

    $210 per used 16 rd. mag

    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=118365915

    That pretty much counts me out on a 45acp conversion, since I like to have at least 10 mags per rifle. That's insane [loco]
     
  19. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    They have been around 100.00 to 120.00 for a while now for the 16rds, the 10 rd ones arent so bad.
     
  20. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I would suggest training to shoot 2 handed with strong hand first then once you get so you have decent groups and speed that way you can move along to strong hand one handed shooting and some weak hand only shooting. Kind of like learning to shoot a rifle, yourbest bet at learning to shoot well is to start off by building the mussel memory so the gun comes up aligned and the sights are seen instinctivly and get so you can do the basic shooting at paper well then building up to longer ranges and harder targets.

    Then the next big thing is deciding to do it and get in trigger time. I know my shooting with a handgun improved dramaticly when I decided to get my carry permit because I decided if I was going to carry I was going to be SURE where myrounds went and made it a priority tocome up with at least 100 rounds of ammo and to take the time one day every week to go out and shoot 100 rounds mostly in 1-3 shot groups at ranges mostly from 7-15 yards with a few for fun out to 25 or so yards.

    One thing I had not thought of and wouldnt have believed how helpful it would be for training untill I got it and that is Crimson Trace laser grips. They dont change the balance and such and come on when you grab the gun. The help a LOT to be able to identify any problems you are haveing. You can dry fire and see when and how/why you are pulling off. It will also tell on you ifyou have bad habbits like sweeping your foot or arm when drawing/holstering. You can do a bunch of dry fire with them and realley build up the ability to have better stability and trigger controle aswell as to improve your ability to bring the gun up already aligned on target. Theres the saying that practice dosent make perfect, only perfect practice makes perfect, well I have found that the laser grips can make it easy identify any stuff you are doing wrong so that you can make sure you only practice the GOOD habbits and not the bad and get that perfect practice. As a bonus you can easily do 90% or so of your practice in dryfire that way and do it in the basement when you have 5 minand dont have to buy the ammo or take the drive to the range but then it allows you to maximize the benifit of the ammo you do fire. So if you can do it I would recomend the laser grips for the training benifits alone but they also RULE for low light situations. I know when I was in Alabama I was shooting the IPSC matches and normaly rated in the bottom 1/4 and mostly bottom 10% for scores (slow times compared to most of the guys there even though my accuracy wasgeneraly in the top 10-20%) but for Halloween they did a low light shoot. I was the only one with a laser and shot about as well as usual....everyone else suffered so much that put me in about second or third place that night IIRC. Just remember to still see the sights too so you use the laser as a training AID and not as a crutch. It still will only show you problems with form, you have to fix it but it shows you as soon as you get it wrong and as soon as you get it right so its easier to fix. Not bad for the price of less than a case of ammo.
     
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