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Gun store owner refuses to give feds customer list of 80% AR lowers

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Quigley_Sharps, Mar 14, 2014.

  1. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    OCEANSIDE, Calif. – The owner of an Oceanside store that sells various gun parts to build a rifle from scratch refused to turn over his customer list to federal agents.

    Dimitrios Karras, owner of Ares Armor, said the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agents were investigating their business, not for what they sell, but for the people who purchase their products.

    [​IMG]Karras said the ATF threatened to shutter their business if they didn’t hand over the names of 5,000 customers who have purchased an 80 percent lower receiver (the base) for building an AR-15.

    It is legal to build a rifle from scratch without serial numbers only if the base is manufactured to ATF specifications. The base is not considered a firearm if it’s sold separately.

    A manufacturer made an 80 percent receiver in plastic with a different material and colors which show exactly where the customer can drill making it easier and cheaper to build. The ATF said it is illegal.

    The ATF sent stores, including Ares Armor, letters demanding they turn over the products and names of customers who purchased them.

    “They said either give us these 5000 names or we are coming in and taking pretty much anything – which is a huge privacy concern and something we are not willing to do,” said Karras.

    Karras’s attorney informed the ATF to pick up the receivers Wednesday morning at their Oceanside location, but the inventory was not the issue. The store owner said he will not comply with turning over their private client list.

    “They were going to search all of our facilities and confiscate our computer and pretty much shut our business down,” said Karras. “The government invades our privacy on a daily basis and everyone thinks its ok. This is one of those situations where hopefully the governmental institutions will come in say this is protected and no you’re not taking it from them.”

    In anticipation of a raid, they filed a temporary restraining order against the ATF, stopping them from confiscating their property, Karras said. The ATF has a certain amount of time to respond. If the two parties do not reach a compromise, they will be in court for a preliminary hearing March 20.
    Mike and Motomom34 like this.
  2. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    ATF specs? What crap is that all about? I'd like to know if they spec my 10/22, too.
  3. BTPost

    BTPost Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    ATF has "Specs" in what constitutes an 80% Receiver... And in this case they Demanded that this fellow, not only turn over, "the Stock he has on Hand" but his Customer Lists, of who he sold the product to, as well. This fellow has a very GOOD LawDog, who went to the local Federal District Court, filed for, and RECEIVED a Restraining Order, that prohibits ATF from Raiding the Business, or collecting ANYTHING, PERIOD. The Judge gave ATF a couple of Days to Respond to the allegations made, in the Request for the RO, and prove to the Judge that these ITEMS, are indeed subject to The FireArms Act of 1968, as amended, or He will make the RO Permanent. If the two sides can't come to an Out of Court Agreement, then then they both will be "In Court" before him, on March 20, 2014, and HE will decide the Case, one way, or another. I like the Judge, and the LawDog..... No BS, just Straight Justice.

    As an aside, on this story, ATF Raided the OEM that produced these 80% Lowers, and got their Customer Lists, and confiscated their Finished Parts, during a Raid that the OEM states was based on a Warrant, Obtained with False Evidence. That is also being adjudicated in another Federal District Court. If ATF loses the Above Case on the 20th of March, they will likely lose the this Case, as well, and be sued by the OEM, for the False Affidavit filing for the Warrant. In that Affidavit, they accused the OEM of Manufacturing the Lowers, complete, and then unManufacturing them to the 80% condition, so they could be sold, without Serial Numbers, and an FFL. The OEM says they can PROVE, that this allegation to be 100% FLASE, and that they will certainly sue ATF to the Maximum Extent, available, in Federal Law.

    Interesting to see how this comes out.... Stay tuned....
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2014
  4. Silversnake

    Silversnake Silverback

    Suing the ATF is suing us. Individuals responsible for such acts should be personally, pecuniarily responsible for the costs of their unconstitutional actions.
    Mountainman and Mike like this.
  5. Motomom34

    Motomom34 Moderator Moderator Site Supporter++

    This will be interesting to watch. I think the AFT hoped that just their title would get them what they wanted.
    Mike likes this.
  6. mysterymet

    mysterymet Monkey+++

    I need to do some ordering pretty quickly.
    Mike likes this.
  7. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    Google BOB Stewart. He sits behind bars today for the same thing. His crime? He was making 80% kits for BMG .50 cals. He had a working prototype for a semi auto and was warned that the feds would not allow him to manufacture it. He was a relatively unknown and small operation until a certain loud mouth radio personality from Texas starting hyping his guns and ranting on air how every militia and patriot in the country should have them etc. Even after he was asked by the leaders in the patriot movement to please stop bringing attention to it.
    A few months later they raided Stewart's home and business and seized his "illegal" stock and what they really came for, his customer list.
    The powers that be will find a reason to get what they want. This guy better watch his six at all times.

    Keep and Bear Arms - Gun Owners Home Page - 2nd Amendment Supporters
    BTPost likes this.
  8. Mountainman

    Mountainman Großes Mitglied Site Supporter+++

    I'm thinking that ATF is just seeing how much it can get away with until someone stands up to it. They got away with Fast And Furious and the store front entrapment BS. So why not push this and try to work there way back to the Waco and Ruby Ridge days.
  9. VHestin

    VHestin Farm Chick

    Hope it goes well for the store owner. I don't like bullies, especially governmental ones.
  10. VisuTrac

    VisuTrac Ваша мать носит военные ботинки Site Supporter+++

    The government loves data points.
    That customer list while valuable to the store owner for future upselling, it's even more desirable to the ATF.
    Never know what you might find at the customers houses.

    A shredder would have been helpful in this case.
  11. natshare

    natshare Monkey+

    Shredders are nice (look how well they work for the feds!), but I'd rather have the encrypted flash drive I recently heard about. 256-bit encryption (if memory serves), which means no one is going to accidently guess your password, and the typical brute force attack of using common words will likely also fail (let's hope you didn't make your password TOO simple!).

    In addition, if someone like the NSA tries to force the encryption, it's designed to simply destroy the data on the drive.....and I believe that includes if someone forces open the casing, to get to the guts of it. Man, you've got to love ingenuity like that!

    Some people might say, "But what if they get a judge to force you to give them the password??" Hell, I'm over 50 years old....I can't remember half the crap I should now, so I'm pretty sure that, after going through the highly emotional invasion of my business by the ATF, something complicated, like a good password should be, would be darn near impossible to remember! ;)
    tacmotusn likes this.
  12. BTPost

    BTPost Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    UpDate: DOJ Lawyers went to the Judge, in an ExPartie Communication, and got the Restraining Order changed to ALLOW a Raid for "Enforcement Purposes" on Friday. Then ATF went and DID Raid ALL the locations that this outfit had, in the area, and took a bunch of stuff. Now, the Owner, is totally ticked off, and His LawDog, is pursuing Sanctions, against the Judge, in Federal Appellate Court. This is going to get REALLY Messy.....
    natshare likes this.
  13. DarkLight

    DarkLight I self identify as a Blackhawk Attack Helicopter! Site Supporter

    You mean the IronKey or the Aegis Secure Key? Yeah, have one, like it a LOT!

    As far as forcing you to reveal the encryption key, well 2/24/2012 (SF Federal Appellate Court) :
    Appeals Court Upholds Constitutional Right Against Forced Decryption | Electronic Frontier Foundation

    There are a couple of other cases that could be introduced but in the first case, US vs Sebastien Boucher, the US Border Patrol agents had actually already seen the...nastiness that Sebastien had on his hard drive but were stupid and powered it down, which re-encrypted the drive. At that point, while the 5th Amendment protects you from self incrimination...it was too late for that. The other case which happened a month prior (1/23/12) and was at the District Court level and is therefor "lower" than the ruling that you can't be forced to either decrypt or incriminate yourself.
  14. DarkLight

    DarkLight I self identify as a Blackhawk Attack Helicopter! Site Supporter

    I would have encrypted via a hardware device the minute they left the premises and then used a hardware shredder for paper and a DOD 3 (or 5) pass wipe on the data.

    That or I would have just scrubbed the data. "I'm sorry, I don't keep records on NON-FIREARM purchases. Sorry."
  15. Sapper John

    Sapper John Analog Monkey in a Digital World

    Should have done it like bad guys used to do it. Write everything on flash paper. One spark and the lists are gone.
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