Healthcare is a right?

Just a mental note time, Government workers are paid by tax dollars, so in reality we pay for them to afford health insurance.
I sure do not see the government returning that favor, in fact they want more from us and penalize us if we do not buy it.

 

White Hot !!
Let me think on it ..Since IM in USA ,AUZI , EU and all over at times , always have been looked after with leek's&holes ..
Worst was USA , I needed Airmedia-vac flight to YVR for repair,
Just so I don't turn the sky purple !!

As Au

Wait for a repair surgery , YES !! rest is BS

Same here ,, PLUS AUZI or medical works all within the CW !!
I need Xtra insurance for USA , China (at cheep , with many other) Russia , and stuipd areas , North pole or south , war zones etc.
USA areas are the most expensive !!

FLY no USA owned aircraft into CW areas is cheep , fly into USA / TSA areas , yur lubed & screwed .
I fly Boeing only , Airbuzz sucks in my eyes.

at 6.8C in life , them days are now rooted to grow on the ranch , drive into Arlington for the beers with my Bros down in WA.
Air travel is (on heavy haulers ) is over as i see it, small fling wings and the odd low wing piper is still the norm ..

Stay safe and look after yourself.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
USA is a Obama dark skid stain
My Bros can't pay anymore , they are tapped and broke ..From 12 years ago I was at the same level in Canada with them !!

Sloth

 

I worked, I saved and payed, now I have near 100% health care as did my first wife before she died because equality is what you make of it.

Piss of your money, live for the moment and accidentally live too long then you'll get what you earned.

White privilege for me was a way up and out via the US Mil, schools equaled time paid by the years and time served. Of course having a clean record meant I could go in the Mil.
University was paid by Companies who employed me as I was good help and by a State that knows a Vet deserves a break and are good citizens and self starters. Laws were voted on and passed for the Hazlewood Act, the cost of an education was paid to the schools as I could afford as well as other University time I paid for special classes. Hazlewood Act - Texas Veterans Commission

I finished in 2007 paid in full with honors.

Actual University time for the Basics was only 1 hour more than required, no play time just picked the classes I needed and the ones that worked the best.

No debt after degree, no big screen TV with monies as a loan by the schools.

Waste not want not.

 

To this I say... How can other countries do it? And, not only do it, but have been doing it for generations! And, don't give me that old worn out phrase of "They are a failing socialist country" because we are also a "failing country", a non-socialist (sort of) failing country. We're broke with a debt that exceeds a full year of our GDP.

Or, are you saying, ONLY the USA can't do it? Now, I might be able to believe this because our government manages to screw everything it touches to include its citizens...and I mean that literally. Yet, if the rest of the world can do it but the USA cannot do it then what does that tell us about our government?

My goodness, are we really saying that we can design and build something as gigantic and complex as a Nimitz aircraft carrier but our government cannot be trusted to implement and manage a health care program due to its corruption and incompetence…something even tiny Belgium and Luxemburg have managed to do for years and years? Because if that's what we're saying...

Now, I am truly and well confused...even scared myself.

 

What is being missed is that just because something is a "right" does not mean the government has to provide it for you.

• You have the right to free speech but the government will not guarantee you space in the editorial section of the paper, or a taxpayer funded web domain to run a blog.
• You have the right to practice whatever religion you want, but the government is not obligated to build a church if there are none in your neighborhood.
• You have the right to bear arms...but yeah, keep dreaming if you think the government will give you a gun if you cannot afford one.

So even if you insist that healthcare is a "right", it does not automatically follow that the government owes it to you. All having a right means is that the government will not get in the way of you having it. You're on your own for the rest.

And if healthcare truly is a "right" that the government must assure, then using that logic I demand free guns!

 

I sure got some folks talking! I asked my relatives more questions. They pay for it in extra property taxes. No problems seeing a doctor or getting surgeries. With about half the American voters screaming for affordable healthcare, something like this is on the horizon. ObamaCare raised the costs. Now President Trump is going back to the insurance company model. People can't afford that either. Many folks here are older like myself and I am telling you that many people out there don't think as we do about stuff. Many think guns are bad and free shit is great. The idea of AI watching their every move doesn't bother many people. They are big wussies who want others to do stuff for them. (no draft) I think we are in a civil war and nobody wants to admit it. Shit, we have been fighting Muslims for years and refusing to acknowledge that Islam is a problem and not compatible with western thinking. I'll check back tomorrow.

 

@Dunerunner We are going to have to agree to disagree or we'll be here all night. LOL!

"Literally every other country exists of a population dominated by an overbearing government"
What you are saying in this statement is 'our country is not dominated by an overbearing government' and in this I would disagree. Yes, I seriously disagree... Even in Health Care, our government shows its overbearing domination. Did they not force medical insurance upon us by law? And, when the Republicans took both Houses and the Presidency, did they repeal it? Oh, no. Do they do anything - ANYTHING - to lower the costs of medications and medical services? How about some legislation to keep medical doctors/nurses/etc. from be plagued by frivolous lawsuits so costs of a doctor visit might be less? I say, their lack of action is 'overbearing and dominating' for it achieves the same result - status quo - because they don't want it to change. Come on, how can you explain a doctor visit costing $250 here as oppose to $65 in Canada? You can't. I can't. I asked our Senators and Congressmen and they can't.

"I feel for the 8% of the population that does not have health insurance..."
This cannot be accurate - no way...Wait! Ah! I see. 'In 2017, 8.8 percent of people...' It was mandated by law! No one had a choice in the matter. Even the wife and I had it - and - because health insurance was so astronomically priced, I kept my income low so that the government would pay for it. I figured since they were forcing it down my throat that they could help with the bill. This year, my wife has no insurance (I'm now on Medicare). In fact, she is looking for a job not because we need the money or because she's bored but specifically for medical insurance...problem is we're finding that most companies around here hire more part-timers simply because they don't have to give them medical, at least, I think that's the reason...

Look, we're not going to agree on this and that's okay. From my perspective, I am positive they have the game rigged against the American citizen. I truly believe this and I do mean exactly what I am saying. I believe they know that its rigged against Americans and they continue to allow it. Furthermore, there is no other way out of this mess but to go to a National Health system - none. It is the one thing that will cut the legs out from under them...I say this hoping they would implement a honest system, such as other countries (Canada, Germany, etc.) have done but I have my doubts.... Also, why can't one still can't carry their own medical insurance (private/employers/etc.) if they wish? They do in Israel, Germany...seems reasonable to me.

My point in all of this is the current system is corrupt and it has pushed costs to the breaking point. In my eyes, it's nothing more than legal Blackmail. We need change but we will not get it because there is too much money involved. Countries like Australia and Canada might not have perfect systems but they certainly are better than what we have now. As far as costs, let me point out that both of those countries national debt is far, far less than our own even with their less than perfect Health Care system.

 

@Big Ron "ObamaCare raised the costs."
It blew the tops off. Basically, all it did was bring the system we currently got in place to poor folks by paying the premiums with government funds - that was it. But, in its defense, it wasn't suppose to change anything, just get medical coverage to the poor.

Obamacare was not a National system in any way, shape or form. One of the biggest benefits a national system will bring will be the capability to arbitrate drugs costs - sort of the same way that individual insurance companies do now except this will be on a scale exponentially greater. This is why medicines are so cheap in Canada. Simply put, the Canadian government says, "if you want to sell your medicine here - this is what we will pay" and this is the price across the country. So, when I get a pill in Canada that cost $2.95 and that same pill costs me $14.97 in the USA - well - I throw the BS flag. The Canadian price proves to me the Drug Company is capable of selling their product and still make a profit at a far less cost than what I am being forced to pay.

 

Dunerunner, I guess the point around the cost of various drugs/treatments in the US is cost vs sale price. The maker/prescriber put a price of $14kUS per on the treatment you needed, that is almost like “sticker price” at a car yard (in text much is lost and please don’t think I am having a dig or being a dick, just looking for the right anology), not many will actually pay that, this is where I believe the collaboration between the insurance industry and pharmaceutical industry play their game. On face value you have saved $14k per thanks to your insurance. In reality the insurance company have some agreed values well below this and that is what they have paid on your behalf. It is the rub, you pay insurance so you don’t have to pay the $14k per and then appreciate the $s you have paid in insurance. In turn around the pharma company have still pocketed a good deal of money but I argue far less than the $14k. This is part of why I say the “health industy” in the US is so broken.

Another interesting example, while we were in California some years ago Mrs Andy developed an ear infection, so as we had to fly home a few days later we wanted it sorted. Found a local GP and got an appointment, two things stuck, $200US to visit the Doc for 10mins, and left with two prescriptions, one for antibiotics to get the infection and one for pain/inflammation. I don’t recall what the antibiotics cost but I do the pain relief, it was in excess of $200 for four pills. When I took a look those pills were IBUPROFEN !!! Large dose yes (but nothing I could not have gotten from two packets of over the counter pills from a garage !! It is just a rort.

Similarly we have friends from the US staying and as he was here for work didn’t have travel insurance, he needed to see a GP he didn’t have much Aussie cash on him and as I didn’t know what it would cost him I sent him to my local Doc with $250A in hand. The staff were most apologetic that as he didn’t come from a country with reciprocal agreements they would have to charge him the fee for the appointment (I don’t pay anything for a visiting just sign for it)....he was a bit taken aback that it was a total of $45Aus for his consult and prescription. Meds, a course of antibiotics (he got a cut working on Fiji that was infected when he arrived here), cost him around $25. None of those are at all funded by the Aus Govt. That is just the “sticker price” here.

 

And soon afterwards the Beatles left the UK (and the sky-high taxes) for tax havens abroad.

 

I'll have to agree with a lot of this,,

 

I have found myself unable to afford health coverage since leaving my day job back in September. My sole income is what I make playing my guitar for other's entertainment. Medications I can no longer afford, doctors and specialists that I can't pay are not a problem, I have found my health improved significantly since I no longer have to be a slave to the wage system. It isn't an answer or an opinion, just one of life's realities and when I am taken by something that a Doctor may have prevented, I'll way the costs of that against a .45acp round.

 

Understood

After an auto accident where the culprit did not have insurance and my insurance would not pay for the back operation because they stated that I had less than a 50% chance of recovery to normal I had similar thoughts. In my case the conclusion was that I would be more damaged by the surgery.

I ask the Doc what it would cost and could he agree to that cost in writing. He did as did the Hospital. I spent the next 6 months selling most of what we had.

I had the surgery and the Insurance had to pay me back I walk straight and am not in pain.

Check around you may find med companies that will help or if you are x- Mil you can approach the VA for help.

Check with the Pharmacy you have been using as well as your Doc.

 

@Dunerunner "We're having the discussion our government officials refuse to have."
Yes, we are and a good one. I especially enjoy it because while I might not convince you, others are reading this and perhaps our conversation is, at the very least, simulating their brain cells to get them to ask the right questions or question their own 'standard' beliefs/answers which the propaganda has instilled in them.

"I question, with government regulating what Pharma can charge for prescription medications, who pays for the research to bring new drugs to market."
I must ask you to elaborate. It's a good question but I'm unsure how to answer it until you specify more precisely. In general, the market place will pay for the research as it has always done. Some people say, America pays much more in drug costs to make up for what the rest of the world doesn't pay but I have never found any data that would even come close to proving this. Personally, I don't believe it and think it is more a case that America pays more because we don't have a choice - we're Blackmailed - and our Congress is in on it, takes a cut, so allows it and even removes obstacles to ensure that it can continue.

Let me explain my use of 'blackmail' in this case. I must take a pill, each and every day, this pill costs me almost ~$15 here in the states while it Canada it costs me ~$3. I don't have a choice and neither do millions of Americans. I pay what they charge or I die. There is no alternative, no choice. They can charge whatever they wish, by law, and in most cases they actually do for how else can you explain the price difference between Canada and here? They charge what the marketplace will allow them which, in America, is 5X-11X more, by my own count. Tell me this, do you believe a company would sell its products in a country where they cannot make a profit from it?

There is no other product in the world today that has the same capability to Blackmail the individual and even financially ruin them and do it legally. Perhaps, some day, water will also be the same as could food if producers organized using the same guidelines.

@Andy the Aussie "This is part of why I say the “health industry” in the US is so broken."
You are being too kind; nevertheless, thank you. The Health Industry in the USA is corrupt. This corruption stems from the connections in government (kickbacks, campaign funding, etc.) to the drug manufacturers to the care providers to the insurance companies that ties all of them together. I speak of that $15 pill but they would charge 2X that if they could; however, at some point the price would hurt their profits because they would not be able to sell it, sort of like, price themselves out of business. Having said this, that $15 pill was $13 last year, a 13% increase when it seems to me it should become cheaper with time, not more costly but that is another problem for another day...

One last thing, what this discussion has brought to my mind is a question that I never asked myself before: "Can we truly trust the American government to provide us honest and fair access to medical services and medicines like other first-world countries?" I sit here ranting and raving about the need to change the system but a system that has been this corrupt for this long and produced such an enormous about of money and power (money = power) - well - is it even possible? Sadly, I don't think so. They might change the rules of the game but the game will remain the same. And, I fear this goes right to the heart of the problem so I will state it and leave. The United States has the most corrupt government in the world.

 

The present high medical insurance costs derive from the "malpractice crises" of several years ago.

That was a total fabrication, but it was used to justify raping the medical profession with far higher than normal premiums.

That trickled right down to higher medical costs that no one could afford. so medical insurance became necessary. Then, with Obama, it became mandatory.

Insurance companies are exempt by law from any prosecution for price-fixing or the conspiracy that accompanies it. (Politicians are very inexpensive. Everyone should buy several. They did.)

First, they raped the doctors, then they raped the patients.

In the meantime, the first and primary objective of every insurance company is to deny coverage, every time, whether justly or unjustly. Insurance companies do not sell insurance. They sell future promises. And then they break them.

About 50% of every premium goes to the agent that sells the policy. The rest (less costs) gets invested, and the pitiful percentages of claims that are paid are mostly paid from the interest on the money.

The answer is to self-insure: Save 50% of the monthly premium the leaches would charge you, and when you finally need a little healthcare, you'll probably be able to afford it, and pay cash in the process.

Then, of course, you negotiate your own prices, based on the doctor not having to deal with the leeches' paperwork.

That paperwork, BTW, is driving doctors out of the medical profession in droves.

 

@UncleMorgan "The answer is to self-insure"
Please elaborate. Exactly how does one do this? Good idea but...but I would think one would need contracts with, at a minimum, a doctor and a hospital but if you have to see a specialist for something then you are out of luck. How would one contract for medications? Seems impossible to me... Please explain. Interesting idea...

@Dunerunner Yes, that is pretty much common knowledge. I didn't realize they had a 20 year patent on developed drugs though and think there is something that general article is not telling us. $2.6 billion. Wow! and a 145% increase in 15 years...LOL! I think that tells us that something has changed, probably a lot to do with litigation which, of course, would explain why there never has been any legislation to protect medical personnel from lawsuits...and never will.