Here's A Free Rifle......

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by Yard Dart, Nov 16, 2015.


  1. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

  2. Airtime

    Airtime Monkey+++

    Actually it can take a person who has never fired a rifle before, pull the rifle out of the case in the truck, set up the bipod on a bench and in just a few moments acquiring a target, they can get a bull's-eye, first shot at 500 or 1000 yards. A few years ago a female CNET reporter who had only fired a shotgun like once, scored a first hit at 750 yards. Here is a 12 yo girl scoring first shot hits at 500 and 1000 yards and even a 3 inch target hit at 500 yards.



    Can tech fail? sure, but don't loose sight of the whole point of this system is to be able to score a direct hit at extremely long unknown distances with moving targets and do it damn near every single time on the first shot. It is NOT intended to make shooters out of non-shooters. A big game hunter may spend $10-20K for his Africa hunting trip and get to fire just one or two shots, they want them to count. The big attraction for the military is you can take a soldier with mediocre shooting skills, give them a TP rifle and they can out shoot an experienced Navy Seal sniper with a conventional sniper weapon, especially on the first shot on a moving target at 500-1000 yards. And in the hands of a Seal sniper, holly smokes, they are phenomenal.

    This is just a progression of technology. When scopes came out there were probably plenty of luddites that said they could shoot better at 300 yards with iron sites than those new fangled telescope things. This is just the next logical step. Embrace it or not, whatever, but the point is it is very real, not BS and it is game changer in the sniper business.

    Have fun.
    AT
     
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  3. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    The crossbow was once called the Devil's weapon, because it could be carried and used by anyone with little skill or training. It was going to destroy the world.
     
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  4. Airtime

    Airtime Monkey+++

    The shooter must move the weapon but the video screen in the scope provides information in which direction to move the weapon. You don't even have to stop at the right point. It "sees" the target, measures the rifle movement and will fire at the correct time compensating for the motion of the barrel as the bullet is traveling down the barrel such that when it exits the barrel, it will be pointed in precisely the correct direction for a hit. The critical dimensions for the shooter are correct wind direction input and a good target tag prior to shooting.

    AT
     
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  5. Eyebone

    Eyebone Monkey

    I hope they have some security in place cause Al Bagdaddy will be all over this.
     
  6. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    We should have a second "mistaken" air drop of weapons to ISIS, with a full load of these [​IMG]
     
  7. Yard Dart

    Yard Dart Vigilant Monkey Moderator

    Good information @Airtime !!!!
    This is a great tool with the latest and greatest tech..... does it replace the normal users need for basic target acquisition technique training and weapons proficiency.... nah. But in the hands of a good shooter, it will make them an incredible shooter.
     
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  8. Tikka

    Tikka Monkey+++

    Understood and thanks. Wind speed, direction and mirage are always critical factors to the shooter.

    How does the shooter input the correct wind direction and speed; is it an input to the computer or offsetting aim?

    The effect of wind is interesting and not as easy as it seems.
    With the wind coming from the left, in terms of a clock, between 8:30 to 9:30 is the only time when full wind speed is considered. Between 9:30 to 11:30 or 6:30 to 8:30 is one half the speed. 11:30 to 12:30 and 5:30 to 6:30 the wind has no affect on drift. 12:30 to 5:30 is the mirror of 6:30 to 11:30. This is a rule of thumb; however, good enough for government work.
    I've used the Mil Dot system and I'm comfortable with it. As I'm old, frugal and set in my ways; I'll stick with what I know. However, as you've probably noticed that doesn't mean I'm not curious. :)
     
  9. Airtime

    Airtime Monkey+++

    You push some buttons on scope to input wind.

    Interestingly, for very long shots, a wind coming straight at you or away from you won't drift bullet right or left but will have a tiny affect vertically, essentially making the distance to the bullet seem a shade longer or shorter. The other challenge as I mentioned above is vertical components of wind. If shooting over a hill and the wind is blowing straight into the hill, it has to go somewhere.... so it goes up and over the hill. This creates a vertical wind component out in front of the hill that is good enough for sail planes and hang gliders to soar for hours on that upward "lift." It can affect bullet trajectory a small bit as well.

    Similarly, in the evening as the air in a valley is cooling and contracting, there will be a strong wind flow down hill into the valley which is called a catabatic wind that can lower the trajectory if firing from a hill into a valley during the evening. In the morning it is the opposite as the valley air heats up creating anabatic winds rising up out of the valley most prevalently on the west side. This is where the Lidar system can figure in to measure and compute all the wind effects on the bullet's flight and plot a super accurate shot. TP isn't telling or selling that to the public but I am rather confident the military is playing with this stuff.

    AT
     
  10. Tikka

    Tikka Monkey+++

    X2, a headwind or tailwind will have, as you said an affect with the vertical component.

    Air density, temperature, humidity, barometric pressure all affect long range shooting. However, this is the domain of finesse shooting either benchrest or the bragging rights of popping a ground hog at a very long distance.

    Depending on the angle of the shot; range is always shortened when shooting up or down hill. As their ranges are always flat, this is not typically part of the BR shooter's tool box; it is more the domain of a sniper or long distance varmint hunter.
    At ~1000 yards or greater, the Coriolis Effect affects drift. Although it is usually mixed in with the Coriolis Effect, the Eötvös Effect is the phenomenon that actually affects the vertical component. It gets really deep from here. A subject that would be interesting for an IRL chat; however, a bit too lengthy for the written word.

    The Lidar System is yet another step upwards and I'll add to your confidence level. The Lidar system as patented by the Israelis reads the wind by the laser's fluctuation. However, it is not of much use under 500 meters.
    New Wind-Reading LIDAR LaserScope within AccurateShooter.com
    Rather fascinating reading.

    Interesting that you mentioned hang gliding. Where I grew up in western Maryland; I used to watch the hang gliders catch the thermals jumping from Mt Quirock. The Army's Stratcom's site C is located up the road from where they took off. As I haven't lived there since 1990, I don't know if they still take off from there.
    Enjoy:
    Due to their involvement with CD, my old Ham Club W3CWC had a 2 meter repeater on the Army's tower at Site Charlie.
    The view is spectacular: Quirauk Mountain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
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  11. Airtime

    Airtime Monkey+++

    You mentioned Coriolis effect and that reminds me that the Tracking Point system has a flux gate compass to determine weapon orientation for Coriolis compensation and ambient air temperature and barometric pressure sensors to compute density altitude.

    When I was dealing with this stuff 4-5 years ago, came across a nifty ballistic speed wheel you can purchase that is custom laser etched specifically for your rifle and load. Do your custom reload and dial in a cartridge. Send the specific bullet info and muzzle velocity to the company and they pump that info into their computer and then etch a custom whiz wheel to compute your firing solution. The TP does all that for you and then some like 15 times per second.

    Accuracy 1st: Sniper Training & Products

    Have fun.
    AT

    PS - Used to know a bunch of HG pilots that flew High Rock. Never flew there myself. As of maybe 6-8 years ago I know they were still flying there.
     
    kellory likes this.
  12. Tikka

    Tikka Monkey+++

    Sweet idea and an excellent execution of it. Most people are at a loss when it comes to long distance shooting. Having the toys and accoutrement of the sport doesn't change that fact. The craft of the rifle goes stale faster than fresh bread.

    I shoot way too many calibers and the ammunition varies from reloads to military surplus. The mil-dot master is pretty neat, adaptable and relatively inexpensive. Mildot Master, Mildot Enterprises
    Chrono the load, know what one is doing and it's good to go. It is not a precision tool; more of a sniper or larger varmint tool. It requires more user skill and knowledge than the other systems we've discussed. As the old saying goes there only free cheese in in a mousetrap.
    Grandson and the wife are pretty adept with the "mil-dot master." I've taught them the mil-dot system, range cards etc. As I mentioned I'm frugal and old fashioned; it works without any extras such as power. Some of the new systems have a 5VDC USB port and 10 amp battery packs are inexpensive.

    My current fun is NV, I've set up a Barnes AR in 5,56 with an ATN on it. Using an auxiliary high power IR 920 nm spotlight; 300 meters is a local phone call. It illuminates further; however that is as far as where I shoot supports.

    As my ex Club was heavily involved with Civil Defense; we had an antenna and VHF repeater up higher on the mountain than where the hang gliders launched. I used to go up to Site Charlie often to help work on the VHF repeater or antenna. The USHGA built a wooden ramp to launch from at PenMar Park. As it was easy to fall off the end; I assume they made it safer.

    Thanks for the exchange, I enjoyed it.
     
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  13. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    The real secret to Long Range Shooting, is in the Ammunition that is used... There is NO Factory Ammo that can beat out, a HandLoaded Round, that is matched, specifically, to the Barrel of the Weapon it is used in... And in the making of that Round, there are MANY "Tricks of the Trade" that make each Round, as closely as possible, exactly the same as the one before It.... That is where High Accuracy, comes from....
     
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  14. Tikka

    Tikka Monkey+++

    The quality of the rifle counts also. When they guarantee sub MOA in writing with commercial ammo of their choice, one knows they have found the right seat in the auditorium. Other than built rifles, in my experience Sako and Tikka are two of the best out of the box rifles. From what I read, others are as good.
    One can tweak a commercial rifle using cryogenics by having it frozen to -238F to align the metallurgical grain structure. It aligns the grains from ---/--- to ------- which improves accuracy.
    As the barrel oscillates when shooting the ---/--- has a similar affect to whipping a rope with a knot or so in it as compared to a rope without a knot. Hammer forged barrels align the grain structure and lack the residual stresses of button or cut rifling. Border, Lilja and other high end barrels are excellent also. However, that degree of excellence has a serious cost.

    Sorting cases by volume etc. and tailoring the load, OAL, powder, primer etc. for one and only one rifle is where reloading increases accuracy. The days of commercial ammo having a flier are long gone and only Mil Surplus has fliers. Although it is cheap and a rip to shoot Russian ammo is at best MOT or minute of torso.
    Typically I agree; that being said I've printed a 9 shot group in less than an inch at 250 meters with .308 Federal BR and a Tikka Master Sporter; AKA the poor man's TRG. I'm after the total package not just a good load in an commercial grade rifle.
    Some platforms are inherently accurate as I have a few sub MOA AR platforms with a Wylde chamber that are less than .5 MOA.
     
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