Honda EU20i Generators, or Denyo Diesel Option?

Discussion in 'Off Grid Living' started by Asia-Off-Grid, Jan 10, 2017.


  1. Asia-Off-Grid

    Asia-Off-Grid RIP 11-8-2018

    Greetings:

    Without going through the entire story here, I will say I went through a lot of red tape to get where I am today. The point (supposedly) where I am now, is waiting for two of these units to be delivered to a dealer in Cambodia by the end of February. (I will be happy to confirm this for you - at the end of February.) The Honda dealer offered two of them to me, at $888 each, delivered. So, they will be available at that time, if I want them.

    My other option is to buy a used / second hand 1 ph / 3 ph, Denyo diesel genset, rated at 45 Kva. (I have been looking for a smaller Denyo, but have been unable to locate one.) Current asking price for this unit is $4,000 USD. I'm sure I could get it for less, though.

    Obviously, the Hondas would be easier to move around, sync together or run separately, and perhaps, better on fuel? (Not sure about the latter part of that.) The Denyo, though, would provide a lot more available power - a LOT. Talk about room for expansion.

    If I resided in another area of the country, where the power is constantly going out (and boy does it!), I would almost go with the Denyo, because it is a diesel. But, considering where I am, and the fact that solar will actually be my primary power source, then mains, then generator, I'm thinking its best to go with Honda power.

    Input? Suggestions?
     
    Cruisin Sloth likes this.
  2. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    Of you can afford it get both.
    You can always resell the diesel probably for about what you paid for it later on if you decide you don't like it.
     
    Cruisin Sloth and Asia-Off-Grid like this.
  3. duane

    duane Monkey+++

    Apples and oranges again. "IF" you can use a generator to both generate and store electricity, or feed a constant load, my limited experience has been that nothing beats a diesel running at about half to three quarters load at 1800 rpm or less. Longest life, best fuel efficiency and the batteries-inverters will take care of any short term rapid changes in load. The fuel is stable, not very flameable compared to gas or propane, and will store for years with a stabilizer. In addition at least in New England, if SHTF, almost all of your neighbors will have a couple hundred gal stored in their basements for furnace that will only run with electric power. If you are using it as emergency power, not solar or wind backup, a Honda type gas engine with an inverter will give the best fuel economy under varying loads and they wear like iron if taken care of. Engine runs at idle under low loads and supplies a constant cycle under varying range rpm and loads and they do not destroy electronics. Cheap gensets run at constant 3600 rpm to get 60 cycle, use lots of fuel and have short life span. Harbor Freight had 6000 watt units for a few hundred dollars. Total crap, but if you use them right, they last a few hundred hours and could save your life for about one tenth the cost of an Onan, Honda, or other good unit installed. If you need it for short term survival, get one ahead of time, set it up, run it one hour, change the oil and run it for one tank of gas, change the oil and put it away, when used run it for 4 tanks of gas and change the oil, rinse and repeat. If you are not using it, put a gallon or so of gas in it every 3 months, start it and run it under load until the gas runs out, 45 min or so until it is good and hot, I use 110 v 2500 W heaters as a load on each leg, depends on your units wattage, and drain oil while hot and replace oil. Do not leave gas in the tank, do not store unit and gas in 160 degree lawn mower shed, do not store gas in plastic cans for over 30 or so days and do use stabilizers. Have it wired up to allow you to control the loads it carries and not kill the electric companies workers, Turn it off when the house is warm, the food cold, etc, usually run about 6 hours out of 24 will get you by, and even a cheap one will get you by for a few months. A good one with solar, will get you by for years.
     
    Asia-Off-Grid likes this.
  4. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    Ok, The MOST Efficient way to use the BTUs in the Fuel you buy is to burn it in a Water Cooled Diesel Genset that has the capacity in KW that is 50% of your Expected Total Starting Load. That is with the stipulation that you Co-Generate by using the BTUs from the Cooling System, and Exhaust System, as well as those coming out of the Copper.... A Heat Exchanger in the Cooling System can extract about 75% of the Cooling BTUs, BEFORE you blow them out thru the Radiator. The Exhaust System can be configured to recover about 50% of those BYUs, in a Water Jacketed Exhaust System.... I suspect 45 Kw is about twice as big as you would ever need... You should be looking for something in the range of 10 - 20Kw, and also be looking around for at least a 4 Pole Genend (1800 Rpm) and a 6 Pole would be even better. (1200 Rpm) An Old Water Cooled Lister would be Ideal, if you could find one.... Use those BTUs to Heat Water, or heat a HotHouse/GreenHouse, of something constructive, in that vein.... Rule of Thumb is 33% of the BTUs goes out the Copper, 33% goes out the Cooling System, and 33% goes up the exhaust Stack.... Without Co-Generation you are wasting 66% of the Fuel BTUs, no matter WHAT Fuel, or type of Genset you buy....
     
    Cruisin Sloth and Asia-Off-Grid like this.
  5. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    First squint: You are looking at 45,000 watts for the Danyo vs 3200 for the hondas. Duane isn't too far off so far as life expectency goes, but a bit more needs chewed on. The Hondas are high speed, IIRC around 5000 rpm. Which is NOT in Honda's case a very bad thing, they build 'em right. But they are NOT base load machines. The Danyo is rated for full time base loading. Now, based on my experience, gas engines are happiest at around half of rated load, and will last forever if treated right. Diesels are most happy at 75 to 80 percent load, and will last about the same time. In fact, part load diesels don't last long at all, they need regular attention. It's worth noting that the Danyo units are Yanmar powered, not at all a bad mfr. All in all, my first thought is go Honda, and if you need more you can parallel another unit.

    @BTPost - He does NOT need heat in Cambodia, that makes cogen less attractive, eh?
     
    Asia-Off-Grid likes this.
  6. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    The Honda inverter generators are only more efficient than their direct drive counter parts when they are at less than half load.
    I already looked into getting one. I say if I need that much power, well under half the generators rated load then the generator doesn't need to be running, that's what batteries solar panels and inverters are for.
     
    Cruisin Sloth and Asia-Off-Grid like this.
  7. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    I know where he lives, but those BTUs are wasted, if he doesn't use them, doing something besides Heating the All OutDoors.....
     
    Asia-Off-Grid and ghrit like this.
  8. VisuTrac

    VisuTrac Ваша мать носит военные ботинки Site Supporter+++

    He is .. he's contributing to global warming. ;)
    with excess heat one might consider an absorption chiller for free* cooling!

    *free as it's waste heat being captured to run the refrigeration cycle.
     
    Asia-Off-Grid, ghrit and BTPost like this.
  9. Tevin

    Tevin Monkey+++

    This is a simple matter of how much power do you need?

    The average person will never come close to needing the kind of power a large Diesel will produce, so there is no point in having it just for the hell of it. You have much more to lose than gain by vastly over engineering your generation capabilities. You also have to consider the substantial costs of installing and maintaining a large engine and trucking in enough fuel to feed it.

    @BTPost is correct on his numbers, but he overlooks one big point: Recovering all that energy doesn't mean anything if you don't have a use for it. And it makes no sense to build a green house or other facility you may not really want (and will cost money) for the sole purpose of using up energy that you would not have needed in the first place but for the facility you didn't want.

    The Hondas will give you a few thousand watts, which should be more than enough for conventional needs, and require a lot less fuel for the power you get. The Denyo will probably burn more fuel just idling with no load than the Hondas will while actually working.

    Unless you can truly justify the Denyo with firm power consumption projection numbers, I say go with the Hondas.
     
  10. Asia-Off-Grid

    Asia-Off-Grid RIP 11-8-2018

    I saw many of these replies last night. But, it was too much for my blonde brain to be able to process. I was going reply until my brain blew a fuse. I slept instead.

    First, thanks to everyone for your input. Nothing less than what I expected to read, from members of this forum.

    Now, buying all of these units is out of the question. That would be almost $6,000 USD in generators - which will serve only as back up / emergency power units. Not to mention, I have to spend a fair amount of money, in a relatively short period of time, to complete all the tasks we will have.

    Oh, since RPMs of diesels came up, I think diesel generators here run about 1,500 RPM? From what I understand, you can adjust those Denyos from 50 hz to 60 hz, at your leisure, while they are running.

    I guess, I was probably looking at which generator would be best for me, to NOT run except on the odd occasion. I have caught myself watching start up videos for inverter generators that have not be started for more than a year. Honda seems pretty reliable that way.
     
  11. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    ok,You are on 50 hz. Forgot that, I did, but the analysis remains the same. That diesel is the right price, but WAY overkill for your needs.
     
    Asia-Off-Grid likes this.
  12. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    50hz, 1500rpm, even better.
     
    Asia-Off-Grid likes this.
  13. Asia-Off-Grid

    Asia-Off-Grid RIP 11-8-2018

    Yep. I imagine running a Denyo may even be as quiet as a Honda.
     
  14. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Not a prayer. Yanmars are quiet as diesels go, but nope, not as quiet as those Hondas. (You were kidding, no?)
     
  15. Asia-Off-Grid

    Asia-Off-Grid RIP 11-8-2018

    Well, um, no. Having lived in Third World countries for almost two decades, where walking past a running-under-load genset is the norm, it seems that passing one powering a bank runs as quiet as a mouse. One can certainly carry on a conversation with one in the background.

    I have never been around small Honda gensets before, though. I had a 7500 watts unit before, which was fairly noisy.
     
  16. Cruisin Sloth

    Cruisin Sloth Special & Slow

    Hondas are the quite ones when they are the inverter style . they also can be ganged , so adding in a 3rd unit of larger size say a eu3000 , they can sync in with the honda or after market cable . So two units is 2K each at max load so in fact You have 1000-1500 watts . I would move up to a 3000 EU unit and make sure its gangable
    Hair dryer & coffee machine would kill them in two years , a Battery charger is a coffee maker on for hours !!!


    I don't agree from above .
    1600.00 spent on to light

    Sloth
     
  17. Tempstar

    Tempstar Old and crochety Site Supporter+

    The Honda would seem the better choice in your situation.
     
  18. Asia-Off-Grid

    Asia-Off-Grid RIP 11-8-2018

    Mate, trying to get 2 - 2,000 watts units has been like pulling hens teeth.

    Until January 5th, I was told the dealer wasn't going to buy any more inverter gensets to sell. One or two days later, out of the blue, I received an email from the manager asking how many units I would like, as they will be made available to me from the end of January, to the end of February.

    Welcome to Cambodia!
     
    Mountain mama likes this.
  19. Cruisin Sloth

    Cruisin Sloth Special & Slow

    Haggle down price & see if you could get the 3Kw or even a 4Kw & figure out the interconnect wires so the units share the load .
    I don't know if selling used works there , But my thinking is , IN POWER !!
    Gen set is good for 1/2 -5/8 power to last , 100% it's dead .
    To charge batterys from a Iota 50hz unit into 24Vdc will take 1800 watts @ 45Amps unit (time ,watts decrease flexy math )
    So you can have one 3k unit power up charger for the bad days ,& tap off AC to run stuff & if a well pump is needed , a 3k unit will pick it up if off inverter . Adding a second Via linking syncro cable , your 6K start up & can run 3000 -4200 and still be in .5 to .8 loads max.

    WATTS add quick , and as with anything ratings are over & under rated .. 3 dress up as a 9 !!

    Thats all I was on .
    Running max Balls2the wall kill these , I have had 3 ,
    Right now I have 5 gen sets .
    Plus two more that are on tractors 3pt hitch .. .

    I like the synco cable honda has & just add units for the loads ect.


    Today Paul I was on a Carbon Arc Air Gouge , shooting 3.5-400 amps on grid (fixing my loader bucket with 1/4 carbon rods) , used 25KW just for that.
    If you get the correct inverter , IT will control the hondas so you to could have this power .
    Olsen did this with a wing genset & his diesel .
    I forgot Olsen fisrt name , smart dude , TN andy might remember , I got a brain Fart

    Sloth
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
  20. Asia-Off-Grid

    Asia-Off-Grid RIP 11-8-2018

    First, sorry for not replying until now. I have bronchitis, which is keeping me down - and sleeping a LOT.

    Let me see if I can explain a bit better about Third World countries. I already knew the answer, even coming from a large distributor in Phnom Penh, the capital city of a country, no less. I queried, "what sort of spare or maintenance parts do you keep on hand for these generators?" Their reply, "For generator we not keep part. But, we warranty for 1 year."
     
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