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How do we feel about the Al-Awlaki assassination

Discussion in 'Freedom and Liberty' started by Avarice, Oct 1, 2011.

  1. Avarice

    Avarice California Health Junkie

    I'm not asking whether or not he was a scumbag who killed people, and would kill more. That is clear.

    Al-Awlaki was a citizen of the United States of America, turned cleric who supported the cause of Al Qaeda and had operational control of terrorist plots. He would kill more people, and actively fight our soldiers abroad. Who knows how many people he is indirectly responsible for killing. We assassinated him with a Drone plane.

    I want to know how you feel about our government assassinating it's own citizens? Even if he is a terrorists leader, and supports enemy combatants, does he forfeit his right to due process? Should we forfeit the right to have him tried?

    It's the same as Bin Laden, it's obvious we knew where this man was, and could have arrested him, in the case of Osama, we did arrest him before we kill him. Instead we used a drone to drop a bomb on him.

    We know how I feel by how I poised the questions, I want to know how you all feel?
  2. UGRev

    UGRev Get on with it!

    we have laws for how we handle traitors and treason. I see this conundrum as no different than how we handled traitors who switched sides in any other wars. Would we call it assassination if he died in a firefight? I think we're treading some grey area here.
  3. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    Clearly enough, he was guilty of treason for advocating violence against his country. The end result should have been the same, if he had stayed a cleric, and was captured and tried.

    BUT: He qualified as a combatant since he was into the operational end of things. As such, he had a target on him no matter where he was when the hit was made. You don't make war only on the front, you go after supply lines and the command and control structures. This was an enemy combatant, KIA, regardless of citizenship.

    I'm very reluctant to call it an assassination, that term should be reserved for people of stature.
    Hispeedal2, Nadja, tulianr and 3 others like this.
  4. radpug

    radpug Monkey+

  5. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    Again, "assassinate" is a term usually reserved for persons of prominence. (Confirm in any dictionary.) That blogger, and all the others that use the term are simply elevating this toad to levels he did not deserve. The blogger even allows as how he wasn't all that important, a "marginal figure." I'll repeat myself for emphasis: He was an enemy combatant KIA.
    Nadja and BTPost like this.
  6. radpug

    radpug Monkey+

    Sorry i guess i should have stated what i found interesting,
    It was this part

    " Many will celebrate the strong, decisive, Tough President's ability to eradicate the life of Anwar al-Awlaki -- including many who just so righteously condemned those Republican audience members as so terribly barbaric and crass for cheering Governor Perry's execution of scores of serial murderers and rapists -- criminals who were at least given a trial and appeals and the other trappings of due process before being killed."

    I kind of find that insightful. I can really believe people will be cheering
    The death of this Anwar guy and rallying against excutions in Texas
    Under Perry.
  7. Pax Mentis

    Pax Mentis Philosopher King Site Supporter

    I agree that assassination is a poor choice of words.

    The killing of a person entitled to constitutional protections by the government, with no due process, is more accurately called murder.

    This means basically that anyone opposing "our" government for any reason can kiss constitutional guarantees and protections goodbye.

    After a career in federal and state law enforcement, this act shames me.
    gunbunny, Minuteman and Byte like this.
  8. Cephus

    Cephus Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Does anybody think he was innocent of the crime of treason against the people of this Nation, If so please explain how. If you look at some the links to his rhetoric
    on net. I believe that wanted dead or alive order was the right way to go,besides it saved several million dollars in court cost.
    Nadja, tulianr, BTPost and 2 others like this.
  9. Byte

    Byte Monkey+++

    I'm with Pax.

    This is a pivotal point. This event will surely resonate in history. One audacious false flag and this precedent will become one scary possible future for us.

  10. Avarice

    Avarice California Health Junkie

    How is he not a politically prominent person? He was politically important to us in America. A US citizen who encourages attacks on his own country. I've heard his name a lot linked to new videos encouraging jihad.
  11. Tikka

    Tikka Monkey+++

    Terminate; if possible, humanely.

    The blogger wants to paint Al-Awlaki as a victim of oppression.

    As the enemy uses the cell concept; the Israelis modeled their program of "neutralize it through capture, coercion or killing its members" after the old Vietnam era Phoenix Program.
    As the enemy is a religious fanatic the options are limited to capture or kill.

    Probably a Bush memento. LOL

    "Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf." --- George Orwell

    tulianr and STANGF150 like this.
  12. Avarice

    Avarice California Health Junkie

    We all know it would be so easy to build a case that he committed treason against his country. They have tribunals without the defendant. You bring it before a jury, and if found guilty, you stick the dead or alive on him. That'd be due process enough for everyone in this discussion, am I correct?

    Instead, the Executive Branch, so one person, says, "He's guilty and done away with, we don't need a trial because WE, the Judge, Jury, and Executioner, SAY SO!"
  13. Opinionated

    Opinionated Monkey+

    Whew. This whole topic could get deep real fast!

    So my being a simple minded guy in order to figure out how I REALLY feel about it, I'm going to break it down into simple terms.

    Walking across my yard I see a man who I know murdered my neighbor.

    Via whatever method, I have reasonable certainty they intend to murder again.

    I'm going to "assassinate" (or pick your term) them immediately. And I'm not going to ask them what their nationality, religious affiliation, or their hat size is first. I'm going to drop them like a rock without hesitation.

    Not only is this - in my opinion - moral. It is my civic obligation.

    Now . . ya'll by all means feel free to keep right on "arguing" but when it gets down to brass tacks I seriously doubt most anyone here wouldn't do the same as me.
  14. Avarice

    Avarice California Health Junkie

    No one is saying he should not have been either killed or captured. He was a threat. We all agree on that issue.

    The argument is whether or not he deserved due process of law because he was a US citizen. Is the military and the executive branch the judge, jury, and executioner? It's not as if he had a gun pointed and you HAD to shoot or be shot? He was having a nice meal of hummus and goat meat, in a hut somewhere in Yemen.

    At what point do we stand up for others and demand due process before we deprive of life, limb, and property?

    Do we wait until there is a US citizen plotting terror here, and they enter his/her home without a warrant and kill them?

    Do we wait until they are labeling anti-war activists as enemy combatants?

    Where do we start being angry?
  15. Sapper John

    Sapper John Analog Monkey in a Digital World

    Well,all I can add is that I took an oath as a member of our armed forces and as a LEO to protect and defend the constitution from Enemies Foreign and Domestic...so I am fine with it and will not lose any sleep over it...just my 2 cents worth!
    Nadja and tacmotusn like this.
  16. swalt

    swalt Monkey+

    I totally agree with Opinionated. This guy was the most deserving man I know of to meet face to face with a Hellfire missle. ANYONE who advocates the killing of Americans, who actually does so, who does their level best to cause chaos and mayhem on these shores, needs to meet with an untimely end. The political correctness of arresting him first is to me, insane. He did it, we know he did it, he is guilty, so kill him. You know, 100 years ago or so, if a person was found guilty they took him from the courtroom, let him stew about his end over night, then hung him the next morning. Since the evidence is there for everyone in the world to see, why waste time and millions of dollars on a trial? Ten years down the road the outcome would have been the same ... he would be dead. And the taxpayers would be out many millions of dollars. Besides, being able to capture the scumbag would have been nearly impossible given the area he was in, but hitting him from 15,000 feet with a missle was a lot easier and safer for our guys. PC has gone way too far and we need to put an end to it. As for setting a precedent for the future, I say HERE, HERE! If we know for sure about the guilt (and here there was NO doubt) then why try and snag them up and bring them back here for a media frenzy, and yet another reason for the extremists to try and kill more of us? This was the right thing to do.
    Nadja and tacmotusn like this.
  17. Avarice

    Avarice California Health Junkie

    You can have a trail without the person there. Get him a public defender and have a bloody trial! They could have done it years ago and avoided anyone having a problem with this.
  18. Pax Mentis

    Pax Mentis Philosopher King Site Supporter

    Maybe we are to wait until the government starts taking actions like this against groups of citizens hated and feared by them...like "hoarders"...

    The really sad part for me is that groups such as those on this board will accept this disregard of due process and yet somehow believe we still have a constitutional government subject to the rule of law.

    I remember reading (I believe somewhere in the "reading room" of this board) a TEOTWAWKI story that included the government using drones to kill citizens who continued to live free in the forests rather than submitting to resettlement camps.

    If we allow our government to disregard due process in cases such as this, we are no better than supporters of that fictional future government.

    I try to avoid argument on this forum, so I will say no more on the subject.
    Minuteman likes this.
  19. Opinionated

    Opinionated Monkey+

    But but but . . That's not fair! You are right !!!!!

    If my government shot that thug crossing my yard I'd be livid!!!! The government is obliged to use that due process stuff. I'm obliged to end the threat.

    . . they shoulda called me. [beat]
  20. VisuTrac

    VisuTrac Ваша мать носит военные ботинки Site Supporter+++

    I'm kind of a mixed opinion.

    Was he a bad man? Yep.
    Was he a US citizen? Yep.
    Was he sentenced without trial? Yep. here is where the gray area comes in, He was opposed to our government but he was directing and planning direct military (in the loosest sense) action against US and it's citizens, not just military personnel.

    So, basically did he renounced his country? Dunno.
    He took up arms against his country. So would that make him traitor or a patriot? At this time, he is probably considered a traitor. But there should have been a trial of some sort

    What about those that feel the government is overreaching it authority and becoming a fascist/totalitarian regime oppressing it people. And preparing for a possible future confrontation, are they to soon to be traitors or patriots?

    Most of the sheeple will never wind up opposing the US in this manner.

    Most of the awake, will oppose our government with protests, blogs, actions that do not cross the line of killing military and/or innocents.

    Now if zero started targeting those that spoke out against US policy, direction of the country, calling him and the rest of the congress critters assholes that need to be wiped off with a piece of toilet paper and suggesting that they (idiots in DC) be sent to three mile island to suck on some radioactive substance until they mutate into a pile of bubbling goo.
    That would piss me off to no end.

    It is our right to speak out about the injustice in our land, discuss the tyrany and ineptness of our elected officials, protest and gather to effect change. Come with brown pants to stop peaceful but loud protest, target organizers and participants, Zero and all those that come after him, be freaking careful, you may be witness to what a bunch of traitor / patriots are capable of doing.

    There may come a time when our government becomes so corrupt (yeah yeah I know .. could it get worse?) that it's own citizens need to use our God Given Freewill and rights there of to forceably replace the government and their policies to restore the constitution. Traitor or Patriot

    Imagine the citizens all armed with pitchforks and hammers walking on washington, they won't have enough bullets. Yeah, I know that wont happen, too many sheeple. But pull their food, heat. The sheeple are going to riot. Would they be traitors or patriots?

    Ok I'm getting a little long winded.

    The difference between Patriots and Traitors is who ultimately prevails.

    Naughty Monkey
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