HT EMP protection?

Discussion in 'Survival Communications' started by scpn, Sep 30, 2018.

  1. scpn

    scpn Monkey+++

    Search wouldn't work:(

    I'm thinking of permanently leaving a spare UV5R in my BOB, with antenna and battery separate. Does it need some sort of Faraday cage EMP protection?

    In the past I had stored various handheld radios in coffee cans or foil wrap or whatever I could fit them in. But I know some people say small electronic devices won't get zapped (if they aren't connected to power line or antenna).
    Seepalaces and Dunerunner like this.
  2. Dunerunner

    Dunerunner Brewery Monkey Moderator

    I have received electronics in Mylar bags.. that might work but I know there is more knowledge out there in the membership.
    Seepalaces, sec_monkey and BTPost like this.
  3. Motomom34

    Motomom34 Monkey+++

    @BTPost is who I would consult.

    @scpn did you try the tags? right hand side, down the page.
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  4. scpn

    scpn Monkey+++ no see no tags
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  5. Motomom34

    Motomom34 Monkey+++

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  6. Motomom34

    Motomom34 Monkey+++

    I know you have to shield devices but I never heard that smaller devices had a better chance of survival.
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  7. Dunerunner

    Dunerunner Brewery Monkey Moderator

    They are on the Main Page. Click on "Forums" at the top of this page. then follow MM34'd directions.
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  8. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    EMP Survival depends on a bunch of different parameters:
    1. Height & Distance from the detonation.
    2. Strength of the pulse.
    3. Isolation from the incoming Pulse by packaging.
    4. Length of any external wires from the circuit board.
    5. If the Silicon Chip design on the boards, was designed for EMP Protection.
    6. How deep under the earth, the protected Package is stored.

    Since ALL the imperical Data is 50-70 Years Old... (Last above ground Hydrogen Bomb Test)
    none of these things can really be calculated in any “for certain” way... So mostly all the Resident SmartGuys can do is “Educated WildAssed Guesses” The better you isolate the item from EM Waves, the less likely it will be impackted.... and the lower and less intence the Detonation is the less the induced pulse will be.... Also EM Waves obey the Inverse Square Law, So the farther away the item is from the detonation, the less likey it. will be impackted.... and since the EMP Pulse follows Wave dynamics and travels along the earth ground, and really does not tend to penitrate the earth ground, (Surface Effect) except at angles very close to perpendicular... burrying the item, in mineralized wet earth, would seem to be a good idea... So in conclusion, taking the above in consideration, your Wild Assed Guess is likely as good as any other persons Wild Assed Guess...
  9. Tevin

    Tevin Monkey+++

    To clarify, there is no known research demonstrating that the physical size of the device matters. If it's an electrical device, it's fair game. Some devices by inherent design are more resistant than others.

    These articles discuss EMP as related to amateur radio in more detail:

    EMP Protection For The Radio Amateur. - Off Grid Ham
    EMP Protection for the Radio Amateur, an Encore. - Off Grid Ham

    TL;DR version: Even simple cardboard boxes covered in aluminum foil with seams sealed with aluminum HVAC tape provides a very high level of protection. The military standard is -80 dB attenuation and this setup will get you very close to that.

    The second "encore" article includes the results of real world experiments done by a radio amateur. While the experiments are not "lab-quality" and scientifically valid, they are well thought out and are far better than just guessing. There is very little professional research out there, so this may be as good as it gets.

    The article also calls out the ARRL for saying nothing and offering no guidance on this important topic.
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  10. apache235

    apache235 Monkey+++

    Another SWAG, layers. A layer of heavy duty aluminum foil, a layer of say, bubble wrap and then a 2nd layer of aluminum foil should keep you in good shape, or you could do a wrap in foil then put it in a mylar EMP bag. As I said, a SWAG.
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  11. In the '80s I worked with a person (electrical engineer) with ELINT gathering experience ('60s EA, VN era). He described rooms with walls covered in 1/4" copper sheets. Nothing's too extreme for Uncle Sam.
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  12. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    As long as you are no where near a strategic target don't waste you time.

    Just removing the antenna and battery should be plenty.
    The battery mainly so it doesn't slowly drain completely flat through the electronics.

    If there is a thermosphere thermo nuclear detonation your radio will be jammed for hours after the event any ways.

    To search for a tag on here it has to have 4 or more letters. So you can't search for things like "emp, the, ass, poo, 911" and so on.
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  13. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    That may be true for Sky Wave paths, however unless the event was within 100 miles of you, it would NOT interfear with ANY LOS ( Line of Sight) or Ground Wave RF Comms... Which is the type of Comms that the equipment the OP was asking about uses...
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  14. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    I read a lot about the starfish prime test, which was 900 to 1000 miles away from HI. Reports were that radio communications were jammed for I think 9 hours.
    I don't think I ever saw the distinction made between very short distance line of sight and over the horizon.
    I'm sure long range was out and I never did find a clear answer saying to what extent short range still worked.
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  15. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    Any Comms that depend on Ionosphere Reflection or Bending will be Problematic... but LOS, OR Ground Wave Comms, especially at higher than 100 Mhz will have little or no Effects from an EMP Pulse that has dissipated by distance, and or time... The one exception, that might cause an issue is if the Pulse is stong enough, it might propigate under the Now Charged Ionosphere around the world and then return from the opposite direction... Again, here the Inverse Square Law is the limiting factor...
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  16. scpn

    scpn Monkey+++

    I don't know for sure what the strategic targets are. I've heard Charlotte and Atlanta are both targeted cities (by Russians? I guess). We have nuclear plants scattered around the state but I think I'm just barely outside the evac zone for the closest one (close enough that I can hear the alert sirens).

    Yea, removing the battery is just standard for long term storage. I have a longer than normal HT antenna so that is the real concern.

    I guess we could make up an EMP searchable term/tag like E-M-P or EeMmPee but would anyone go back and add it? I didn't think of trying Handy-Talkie for HT. I really don't see the value of tags when you can put the important words in the title. Tags seem too AOL-ish to me, but I may play around with them.

    I've heard of the copper clad rooms before. OK for them, but the most I've heard of a citizen doing is wire mesh. I have an aluminum shack (RV) but because of the windows I don't think it would be a good cage. 2m and broadcast FM make it through fine and the main EMP wave is supposed to be between those two. Like BT says, there isn't really any reliable source, just opinions.

    The layers of foil and bubble wrap or cardboard for insulation is what I've been doing for years. And that is very portable and appropriate for a BOB.

    As far as the small devices not being affected, it isn't proven but some of the people who think they know do tell us that. Like, for example, your cell phone may still power up but not get a signal. Or, a 2m HT may still work on simplex but the repeaters will be toast. I don't know. I've been protecting spare gear for years. But I was just thinking about whether it was over concern for a disconnected HT in a BOB. I can still do the foil if there's any doubt.
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  17. BenP

    BenP Monkey++

    Take the battery out of it then wrap the radio up in tin foil and put it in your pack. :)
  18. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    A military base, shipyard, port, very large power plants, large city, military industrial areas.

    But a very near surface air burst will be very different than a thermosphere burst as far as the emp goes.
  19. Merkun

    Merkun furious dreamer

    Those would be secondary targets. The first shots will be taken at missile sites to throttle retaliatory strikes. Then large cities for panic effect. And then on to harass comms centers and mil-industrial centers along with power plants of any size (that served dot mil and industry.) Last will be shipyards. Consider the time needed to gear up to do repair work on large vessels. No hurry for that set of targets on the first go 'round. Quite frankly, EMP will be a minor irritant in comparison to the rest; nor do I think that depending on EMP to cripple the country as a particularly effective at crippling, neutron bombs will be a much more effective means, just kills people but leaves the infrastructure relatively undamaged. (War is what it is, after all. I would want resources to exploit, not mouths to fill.)
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