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Ideal Survival Rifle

Discussion in 'Survival Articles' started by survivalmonkey, Aug 26, 2005.

  1. D2wing

    D2wing Monkey+

    Actually the 5.56 was always much more effective than the 7.62x39. To say the 7.62x39 is more powerful is very ill informed or just ignorant regardless of your personal opinion. 50 years of combat, testing, hunting and the facts of wounding bear this out. 40 years ago the Soviets and more recently the Chinese switched to cartridges similar to the 5.56 NATO. In spite of the backwards thinking that just bigger holes matter, it is energy, bullet placement and construction that matter. There are factors and situations to consider, a 7.39 may have more penetration in certain situations but it does far less damage.
    Tully Mars likes this.
  2. Grand58742

    Grand58742 Monkey+++

    All true as it doesn't depend on the size of the hole. But the round design is key as you noted above. If you have a 7.62x39 round that isn't steel jacketed (like most of the imports) the round is pretty good at stopping. Normally though the round zips right through without expansion or dumping energy in the target.

    But the 7.62 does have more ME than the 5.56. It's just bullet design doesn't allow it to dump energy like the 5.56 does.

    So just like .223 or 5.56, round design is critical. I for one wouldn't feel under gunned with an AK system with a round like the Hornady SST or Federal Fusion that's designed to expand reliably and dump it's energy in a target.
  3. Pax Mentis

    Pax Mentis Philosopher King |RIP 11-4-2017

    This is also why for short work I have always preferred the old low twist rate M16 to the newer ones with a heavier twist. The tumble is (as my grandson would say) the bomb.
  4. smithcp2002

    smithcp2002 Monkey++ Site Supporter++

    Rossi .38/.357 to match with the S&W27, is my best overall tool.

  5. D2wing

    D2wing Monkey+

    That is not entirely the case either. You are right that the 7.62x39 has slightly more energy than the 5.56 NATO. You are also correct the a SP expanding bullet is much more effective. That is true of both rounds and all others in respect to hunting deer size animals. They are not allowed for combat.
    Where you go off track is the wound and lethality characteristics. Rounds over 2500 fps have vastly more killing power due to cavitation. That velocity exceed the fleshes capacity to be displaced causing a rise in pressure and expanding the wound in a wave like pattern causing a vastly greater wound and a shock wave.
    This is the main reason that 5.56 is vastly more powerful and devastating than the 7,62x39. This is also why slugs and slow bullets are far less effective that modern centerfire bullets that have impact speeds in excess of 2500 fps and up the higher the velocity the greater this effect. Expanding bullets do enhance energy dumps.
    Many people foolishly think that shotgun slugs and old fashion black power cartridges are powerful because of their size, but that is not the case. They pass through a body making a clean wound that is much less effective than a HV expanding bullet. This is what bullet designers, the military and anyone who has done much hunting with a variety of cartridges knows. I have seen this myself over many years and dozens of kills.
    A game warden that culls buffalo told me he kills them with a .223.
    I do not mean to say they are not effective. Those big rounds are effective enough to kill anything in North America. Most North American game was nearly wiped out with black powder single shots before modern cartridges were designed. But a slug is not going to knock a person or big game animal over by impact ever.
  6. Grand58742

    Grand58742 Monkey+++

    I wasn't specific about combat vs non-combat. I was speaking mainly in a WROL situation where anything goes.

    I'm familiar with temporary and permanent crush cavities. As well as the FBI recommended penetration depth. My point was as a round expands, it also is dumping energy at the same time as well as creating a larger wound channel in a SP or HP design. M193 spec ammo gets its lethality from fragmentation (I know you know this) and the large temporary and permanent crush cavities. It's devastating, no doubt about it (point of note, some ODA teams were using it in A-Stan a couple of years ago) and continues to work to this day. And the wounds caused by the cavitation were the reason the Swedes wanted it banned during Vietnam.

    But in a SHTF type scenario, I'm not worried about the Hague Conventions or the like. Which is why I'm using bonded SP in my AR since I want that potential for a larger permanent crush cavity, just as large temporary cavity and barrier blind performance. That comes from velocity as well as the bullet design. And is why I mentioned the SST (good terminal performance) and the Fusion (barrier blind) as some of the only rounds I would consider in 7.62x39mm for self defense measures. They offer good penetration, good temp/permanent crush cavities and good terminal performance. I would not recommend anything steel jacketed for an AK unless it's a last resort in a SHTF situation. They have penetration out the wazoo, but don't dump energy or create that temporary or permanent crush cavity like 5.56 or a modern designed 7.62x39mm does. There haven't been a lot of independent professional tests done on the Hornady or Federal loads, but manufacturers tests look very promising as well as real world hunting applications.

    I think we're on the same page here, just talking about different situations. I'm referring to the end of the world scenario in which I would only recommend stockpiling non-steel jacketed SP/HP designs for 7.62x39 for those that choose that caliber as their main line. I know it's expensive, but at the same time buy once, cry once.
    D2wing likes this.
  7. Gator 45/70

    Gator 45/70 Monkey+++

    Elmer Keith always advocated the 38/357
    Something you could carry easily and if necessary..Make on the run.
  8. D2wing

    D2wing Monkey+

    Ok, we are on the same page, Grand. I agree. A person may want FMJ for vested blue hats.
    As far as the 38/357. I used to cast and load out those hot .38's but haven't for decades. I did not see an advantage over factory .357 loads. But in a shtf situation where you cast your own they would do.
  9. D2wing

    D2wing Monkey+

    You can offset that by using a heavier buffer. I went with an H2. That slowed the action enough to give more reliable extraction( I ungraded to BCM bolt and extractor as well.) it shoots anything now. I also tried a full length Dissipator. That did not work, not enough barrel after the gas port to cycle reliably.
    I agree that the 20 inch rifle version is the most reliable, and has the best performance. But the 16 inch carbine is pretty handy.
  10. D2wing

    D2wing Monkey+

    I don't see much point is a pistol cal. Rifle but to each his own. If you are ging to carry a rifle it should have an effective rifle cartridge. Unless you think of it as an upgraded .22 LR that you can reload and is legal for deer. I suppose you could use subsonic loads and use a silencer if legal.
  11. Airborne Monkey

    Airborne Monkey Gorilla Survivalpithecus

    Gator 45/70 and kellory like this.
  12. Grand58742

    Grand58742 Monkey+++

    I believe he was referring to the new M855A1 the Army is adopting. The chamber pressures are reaching 60,000 psi and port pressures are going up 50%

    M855A1: Are Soldiers and Marines Being Sold Out? - Guns & Ammo

    American Rifleman | Testing The Army’s M855A1 Standard Ball Cartridge

    M855A1 presentation lists improvements over M855

    Doctor Gary Roberts (known as DocGKR on the web) isn't a big fan of the new round and has been fairly critical of same. However, being that it's illegal to purchase in the civilian world, it's not likely going to be a big deal. But those kinds of pressures will break things far sooner than originally intended per the M-4 TDP.
  13. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey Site Supporter

    Correct. We just need to be aware that those might surface sometime.
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2015
  14. Gator 45/70

    Gator 45/70 Monkey+++

    Fun gun to shoot, Rossi 38/357

    rossi 38-357 001 (1024x768). rossi 38-357 002 (1024x768).
    Yard Dart and techsar like this.
  15. techsar

    techsar Monkey+++

    Yes it is...but mine has the larger lever hoop.
    Gator 45/70 likes this.
  16. Gator 45/70

    Gator 45/70 Monkey+++

    No its not...Sorry you know La. Law
    No pictures, No proof!
    Until then...You suck eggs... Unless we see it, Then your cool!
    techsar and HK_User like this.
  17. techsar

    techsar Monkey+++

    Darn...I missed this follow up! Ok, here's the proof ;)
  18. techsar

    techsar Monkey+++

    But for times when .38/.357 aren't quite enough, there's the Browning 2015-03-13_18.44.32. BLR in .308
  19. shaman

    shaman Monkey+

    It's funny y'all are talking about .38/357 rifles here. I was carrying a Marlin Lever over the weekend just in case I came across a coyote. They're bad down at the farm. I got to thinking: why wouldn't this be a good SHTF rifle?
    1) Granted, it does not load from a detachable mag, but how often are you going to have to crank off more than 9 rounds?
    2) It is very easy on powder. A few grains per round really gets the job done.
    3) It'll do a 2 or 4 legged coyote at close range. It'll do a deer. You can bark a squirrel with it.
    4) It is easy to cast bullets for it. I've got moulds from 125 grain up to 200 grains.

    I don't buy the idea of a "Best" survival rifle. Anything handy when the time comes is what it is going to mean. I'm taking the whole collection to the bunker with me. Even the 35 Whelen makes sense when you have 100 rounds of 35 Whelen and a rifle to shoot it with.
    techsar, stg58, oldawg and 3 others like this.
  20. hamsurvivor

    hamsurvivor Monkey

    For my shtf situation I have my ar15 and I'm in the process of building an ar10 for them down the way critters.
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