Idiot gets self, son killed by carrying empty gun

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by Legion489, Apr 16, 2017.

  1. Legion489

    Legion489 Rev. 2:19 Banned

  2. Tempstar

    Tempstar Old and crochety Site Supporter+

    I've seen people who can draw and rack a slide in a heartbeat. I think this video better illustrates a lack of range time and proficiency with the weapon, something that can't be stressed enough if you're gonna carry.
  3. Motomom34

    Motomom34 Monkey+++

    The comments in the article are interesting because some are debating whether he could have gotten a shot off anyways. The bad guy had the gun in the guys face. Could the father have draw and shot before the robber did? The question is, do you draw and shoot when someone has a gun in your face?
    Tevin likes this.
  4. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

  5. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Well, you don't try to draw and shoot (or in this case raise and stroke the slide) if you are already under the gun, and it makes no difference if the gun you are drawing is loaded or MT. IMHO, it was not the MT gun, but the MT head in charge of the gun.
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2017
    Tully Mars likes this.
  6. AxesAreBetter

    AxesAreBetter Monkey+++

    If you can't take enough responsibility on yourself to carry a loaded gun, you shouldn't carry a gun in the first place.
    Sgt Nambu, Legion489 and Tevin like this.
  7. Motomom34

    Motomom34 Monkey+++

    So are we to assume that he was an idiot because he drew when a gun was sticking in his face? Sounds like he should have stayed still and handed over his wallet.
  8. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Idiot or otherwise, it was a serious error in judgment to attempt beating a trigger finger with arm motions. Granted, he tried to conceal the actions,. but at the same time, he overestimated his own ability. Now, as to the flat statements about carry locked and cocked or not, there will be a LOT of disagreement. Strictly the choice of the owner recognizing the pros and cons of each. Axe's opinion works for him; just fine so far as it goes.

    I have to add that carrying a DA revolver that would require no such stroking of the slide would NOT help with a perp's muzzle already on you.
    Tully Mars and Motomom34 like this.
  9. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    So what are these numbers?
    You make a big deal out of it so it must be really high.
    Sgt Nambu and Legion489 like this.
  10. Dunerunner

    Dunerunner Brewery Monkey Moderator

    My thought is he knew the robbers were going to kill them anyway, so why not take the chance that he could at least get some lead into one of them before they killed him. His mistakes were... One: Not enough crisis practice and, Two: Not carrying his weapon in condition one.

    There may not be time to rack the slide and when you are in a crisis situation not practiced and pumping adrenaline, just getting the firearm out and on target in a ready to fire condition and putting two into the target is a challenge. Add multiple attackers, close combat conditions and the life of you child to the mix and it becomes even more difficult.

    At least this guy made an attempt to save his life instead of merely sacrificing himself and his son.
    Motomom34 and Tully Mars like this.
  11. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Grampa Monkey

    Difficult questions to try and answer here, and a sad outcome is the result! Rule #1 of a gunfight, NEVER draw on a Drawn Gun!
    Dunerunner has a good point, it was likely he was going to get shot any way, might as well try to get a shot or two off any way! The choice to carry empty chamber is tough, some folks cannot wrap their heads around carry in condition 1, and this is one of the chief reasons I personally carry the 1911 platform. It's as safe as any method and better then several more modern designs.
    Bad out come all the way around, and I cannot answer what I would have done in this situation!
  12. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    The CDC keeps statistics on mortality due to firearms.....otherwise the statistics may stretch variably depending on whether a pro-gun or an anti-gun website is being referenced.

    I doubt that the CDC keeps specific statistics on deaths incurred by not being able to draw and fire quick enough, (due to not having a racked round) to drop an assailant before they themselves are dropped.

    New CDC data understate accidental shooting deaths of kids
  13. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    So you have no idea?
    Accidentally shooting someone because of misidentification and accidental child shootings have nothing to do with a negligent discharge. These are word for word the exact same weak ass arguments the anti gun nuts always reference.
    Legion489 and BTPost like this.
  14. Tempstar

    Tempstar Old and crochety Site Supporter+

    According to the CDC, 2.9% of gun deaths due to unintentional discharges.(2011) All we need is someone from OZ trying to tell us our gun statistics. Yeah we shoot each other, but we got the right to do so, or at least the right to own the guns to do it with. Lot better living up here in the "Wild West" than under misguided Draconian laws in upside down land. Damn it Chell, I wasn't gonna let you rile me up.
  15. Tevin

    Tevin Monkey+++

    I agree that one cannot assume that the outcome would have been much different had the gun been correctly loaded.

    Having a loaded gun certainly improves one's chances, but too many people who carry overestimate themselves. They fall into this "I'm a badass" mentality where they envision themselves as the glorious victor in every possible confrontation. It never occurs to them that the other guy, who also has a weapon and also thinks he's a Big Deal, just might be a little better, a little faster, or a little more lucky.

    I cannot fathom why anyone who is concerned enough to carry would not have a round in the tunnel, hammer back and ready to go, with the safety off. Learning how to rack a round and fire "in a heartbeat" is possible, but it's kind of like running the entire Indy 500 with flat tire and expecting to win: Yeah, theoretically it can be done, but why would you purposely place yourself at an easily avoidable disadvantage?

    At the same time, making completely off topic correlations to negligent discharges is ungracious and irrelevant, but such commentary is to be expected from the Survival Monkey house troll.
    Legion489 and Motomom34 like this.
  16. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    I have carried a 1911 in condition one (cocked and locked) for the past 40 years and not one negligent discharge ever occurred. My best advice is to practice, practice and then practice. Prepare your mind for lethal confrontation and condition your body to respond. Judgement can't be taught, but proficiency can be learned.
  17. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    I would put the whole Story, up for reevaluation, in the "Light of Situational Awareness".... Why was the son, standing right there, with Dad? Why was Dad, not behind the Counter, where he could get to his weapon, hiding his lower body behind the Counter. Why had the Family not thought out the issues, of Armed Robbery, long beforehand? I wouldn't call the Dad, "An Idiot", just unprepared for the confrontation that was bound to happen in his business... Seems to me, all he did was think the presents of his Weapon, would deter the issue, without thinking it through, and the consequences, fully...
    ghrit, Gator 45/70 and chelloveck like this.
  18. Legion489

    Legion489 Rev. 2:19 Banned

    Sorry, not to get a flame war going, but lack of forethought, lack of training, lack of practice, lack of carrying a loaded weapon (ie: carrying an UNLOADED weapon! The FIRST rule of gun fighting: have a gun. SECOND rule: Have it LOADED! Not "loaded when you might need to use it". It is ALWAYS loaded! In case you DO need to use it!) you may be expecting to use, I mean, why bother? All of that pretty much guarantees that the person doing that will end up on the wrong side of any encounter. Plus he was living in Kommiefornia. Well stupidity comes to mind and would fit the bill nicely, but I thought "idiot" was more correct.

    ---- "[W]ithout thinking it through...". And that is the definition of idiot. A gun is NOT a magic wand and waving it around does NOT make the armed baddie go away in a puff of smoke. The baddie WILL go away in a puff of smoke, if hit properly - center of mass, chest/heart/lung - because smokeless powder is not actually "smokeless". But here everything that the guy COULD do wrong WAS done wrong. And he paid for it with his and his son's life.

    IF someone is going to carry a gun for protection, only an idiot would carry an UNLOADED one. I do not know if they were told they were to be killed and/or expected to be killed, and anything they did would be an improvement, but that still leaves the question of why he was packing an unloaded firearm in the first place, which pretty much guaranteed what DID happen WOULD happen. Live and learn. He didn't live OR learn, possibly someone here will.
  19. Motomom34

    Motomom34 Monkey+++

    Currently my revolver is unloaded. My boss hates guns. Said I can bring a gun to work but no bullets. I half-way respect his wishes. I have my gun and the bullets are in a separate pouch. Yes, it is kind of stupid to carry an unloaded gun but when I walk into his company, I sort of obey his wishes. I refuse to leave it in the car because when I leave, I am the only one (I lock up the place nightly), therefore I like to have my weapon with me. I doubt my boss would ever see my gun because it is in a pocket of my purse but if he ever did, I could say "look, it isn't loaded". I am trying to figure the best way to respect my employer and his wishes while still protecting myself.
    Gator 45/70 likes this.
  20. azrancher

    azrancher Monkey +++

    MM, I worked for the Feds, there were times that I carried. An empty gun with bullets somewhere else is only good in a siege where you have time to load. From the Vid, it looked like if he had had the gun chambered, safety off, the gunman would have lost, his partner would have been instantly panicked.

    The camera angle sucks, a face shot of the gunman would have let us know if we were already going to die or not.

    arleigh likes this.
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