Iran and now Russia,USA,south China sea,

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by oldman11, Apr 15, 2016.


  1. oldman11

    oldman11 Monkey

    I learn more by asking questions and listening to the answers I get. What should have happened when the Russia planes made a run at our navy boats? Do you think we should sit by and let them do this? Do you think we are weaker now than we were eight years ago? We let Iran get away with seizing our boats and now this thing with Russia,obuma has made us the laughing stock of the world.
     
  2. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    I'd almost bet the farm that the Cook had its targeting radars on, if not should have, and gone active on the mounts, unloaded. If I had been the skipper, we would have been at GQ, and no one has told me Cook wasn't. These provocations do not happen in isolation with our ships sitting on their hands. Yes, we should let them do that sort of exercise with the usual diplomatic protestations, so we can as well. (I have to wonder how many of those things are done by us that we don't know about. Pretty common events in the Cold War on both sides.) The seizure of our patrol boats is another story entirely. That should have had a retaliation attached. I have to wonder if there wasn't one we don't know about. If not, zero missed another chance to make a point.
     
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  3. Yard Dart

    Yard Dart Vigilant Monkey..... Moderator Site Supporter++

    The Captain of the USS Cook had shown some good restraint. He had the right to use force according to statements make by ol Johnnie Kerry per current ROE. As Ghrit said, I am sure the radars were lighting up the planes and Phalanx was tracking on standby. Some reports I read stated the planes were observed to not be carrying any ordnance.... show boat buzzing does not warrant a shoot down of the ruskies..... but if they had activated their radars for a lock, all bet's would be off at that point.

    The Cook is more than capable to deal with a couple fighters.......
    [​IMG]

     
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  4. Tikka

    Tikka Monkey+++

    So far, the only point 0bama has made is he is gutless and he has made the point over and over.
     
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  5. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    I have a sneaking suspicion that was unknown until the aircraft were at near touching distance UNLESS we have detection capability that is not too well known. (Not to mention on board guns that are within the airframe.) Or the aggressors advised us ahead of time that it was to be practice only, to which we probably said, go ahead, but know what will happen if it turns out otherwise. No matter what zero thinks about Russia and its friends, Putin is not stupid and really has no interest in anything more than intimidation. Which, I add, he is quite adept at, at least with zero and many other lesser powers.
     
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  6. oldawg

    oldawg Monkey+++

    Awright I'm old and experience outdated by many decades not to mention difference between brown water and blue water navy. That said, I watched the clip several times with sound up. No klaxons and bosun on the bridge not putting out the general quarters instructions with or without the normal add on of "this is (is not) a drill. Also what little they showed of the crew was a bunch of swabs standing around watching the show. That tells me this was no surprise and fore warning had been given. Otherwise you wouldn't see crewman standing still on deck whether the jets were armed or not. A political response was given out to the media for us sheep.
     
  7. Yard Dart

    Yard Dart Vigilant Monkey..... Moderator Site Supporter++

    Ahhh, wisdom from the deep Oldawg!! This knuckle dragging grunt would not notice those details..... :rolleyes:
     
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  8. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++

    @oldawg is right. There was absolutely no way possible that the USS Cook didn't know those guys were not coming. Plus, if the Captain had not gone active - well - my guess he would be having to explain himself to a court of enquirer, at the very least, as first and foremost the captain's purpose is to defense and fight his ship. So, my guess, and it's only a guess, is we don't have the entire story. We were given exactly what they wanted to give us and no more to make a point - maybe so Kerry could go on a day later and talk smack.

    Standby for a small rant... I still cannot understand why most of the populous are so damn afraid of the Russians. In comparison, they military is nothing, especially their navy. Their economy doesn't even match Italy's (the last time looked) and they are in the middle of a huge economic crisis brought on by their misbehaving in Ukraine...which of course causes Putin to try to do other things to spur patriotic fervor so that the economy is forgotten. In a straight up fight, the US alone would wax the Russians to the point that would bring Napoleon and Hitler to tears...and their powers know it. Only nukes protect them and they do not want to go there...Oh no, they're not stupid. So, the know exactly what they can get away with given our weak kneed CIC.
     
  9. Yard Dart

    Yard Dart Vigilant Monkey..... Moderator Site Supporter++

    On Tuesday, two Russian warplanes flew simulated attack passes past the USS Donald Cook in the Baltic Sea, and while the move was unnerving and aggressive, it's not the kind of event the Navy responds to with force.

    "You don’t get to kill people just because they’re being annoying," retired frigate and cruiser commanding officer Capt. Rick Hoffman told the Navy Times about the incident.

    "We’re not at war with Russia," Capt. Rick Hoffman said.

    "It would be one thing to be operating and have a threatening attack profile from someone who might not recognize me — that’s not the case here."

    As a former commander of a cruiser that protected aircraft carriers and amphibious-assault vehicles from airborne attacks, Hoffman knows how to deal with threatening aircraft.

    The Russian planes, Su-24s, had no visible weapons during the passes, and at no point did the USS Cook detect that the Russians were trying to lock onto them with a missile.

    [​IMG]ReutersA US Navy picture shows what appears to be a Russian Sukhoi SU-24 attack aircraft flying over the USS Donald Cook in the Baltic Sea, April 12, 2016.

    Though the passes likely violated a 1973 agreement between the US and Russia and were a clear act of aggression, downing a plane likely means the death of the pilot, which was simply not warranted given the situation.

    According to Hoffman, this stunt most likely took place to generate propaganda for Russian President Vladimir Putin's regime.

    "It would be real interesting to see what shows up in the Russian papers in the morning, how they play it," Hoffman said.

    "It's not that different from North Korea," he said. "He does something and then he plays it domestically however he needs to play it for the purposes of getting his people energized."

    Here's why the Navy didn't shoot down the Russian fighter jets that buzzed by a US destroyer
     
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  10. BTPost

    BTPost Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    And you can bet the CIC saw those planes 30 miles out, and tracked them, the whole time.... The Russkies are lucky that wasn't an AGEIS Crusier, which could have Fired up the Big Phased Array Radar, and Smoked all the Electronics in the Aircraft, as it came in.....
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2016
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  11. UncleMorgan

    UncleMorgan I eat vegetables. My friends are not vegetables.

    My opinion is that Putin is a born military genius right up there with Alexander the Great, Napoleon, and Adolph Hitler.

    Hitler revitalized the wreckage of post-WW1 Germany, and turned it into the most efficient and technically advanced country in the world, at the time.

    Putin is doing the same to Russia, and rebuilding the Russian Empire (less Communism) to a greatness not known in more than a hundred years.

    Depending on which article you read, Russia is either advancing or declining in every chosen sector. So one has to mine out the truest truth wherever possible. I've been mining for a while.

    I knew when Putin popped out of total obscurity to become the head of the KGB that he would be a force to be reckoned with at some point in the future. Now that he has finished conquering Russia he has set his sights on regaining and exceeding the prior glories of the Russian Empire.

    Putin is a master statesman, tactician, and strategist. He routinely makes his adversaries look like idiots. Every move he makes has a specific strategic goal, and he knows to a hair which lines can be crossed with impunity, and which can only be crossed at a price.

    Putin will never start a nuclear war with the US. That would simply erase his achievements right along with Mother Russia--and the rest of the world.

    What he will do is politely nip off our fingers and toes like a persistent case of frostbite, isolate us from our allies, deprive us of strategic resources, stage-manage public opinion until the entire World is against us, and hammer our fundamentally worthless dollar into the dirt--right along with the US economy.

    Then he will generously offer to help us out by buying Alaska back--at a discount.

    I'm sure that this latest "incident" occurred after the USS Donald Cook was advised of an upcoming peaceful fly-by. And I'm sure it has more propaganda value (somewhere) than we are aware of at the moment.

    Never forget that Putin is (publicly) a very high-ranked Judo master who still trains rigorously. That alone is positive proof that he has the mind of a conqueror and the heart of a howling wolf. In fact, he is probably also at the very least a Spetsnaz-level expert in the Russian combat style called Systema, which I consider to be very possibly the best in the world.
     
  12. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    [​IMG]I ;)

    As far as military technology, quality of weapons and equipment and the fighting quality of its soldiery are concerned, you are probably right in your assessment, but Russia may not cooperate by offering a straight up fight.

    Whatever Putin's faults and failings are, Russia, to Russians is the Motherland, and they will do to any invader what it has successfully done to Napoleon, and Hitler (albeit at huge costs in Russian lives)....and use the vastness of Russia to basically bleed the invader white. I doubt that the USA alone, (or even with allies when it comes to it) would be able to sustain over a long time frame, such an enterprise. Although the USA and its allies easily and quickly destroyed a fairly well equipped, (by Middle Eastern Standards) Iraqi conventional military; some decade of so of policing rag tag Islamic militias and terrorist cells has pretty much strained the US military to its limits, and has helped build a sovereign debt liability that is crippling America.

    Even if significant major Russian infrastructure is utterly destroyed, along with its economy....The Russkis may well continue fighting with Kalashnikovs, RPGs, and IEDs while sustaining themselves on turnips and beets...for as long as it takes. A lot depends upon how successfully Putin is able to maintain the cohesion of the Russian people. It's a pretty big gamble, which may also draw in China. The Chinese may take action to prevent a substantial change in the global balance of power that may not be in China's interests if Russia is substantially neutralised..
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2016
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  13. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++

    Bah! Rubbish! First off, we are not Napoleon or Hitler and who said anything about invasion? That would be a stupid mistake and give cause to exactly what you are saying. No, we would keep supply lines short while hitting theirs (Russia size in this regard works against them) and arms factories with advanced aircraft and missiles. A major portion of their military are conscripts. Send them home in body bags and cause the huge grief at home like the first Chechnya war which caused a huge political crisis. Secondly, there are lots of those that are against Putin and his merry band of oligarchs - support them. Third, completely take out their navy which would not be that difficult given their numbers, competence, and quality. One doesn't have to nor want to conquer Russia just to beat them into realm change. And, yes, the Chinese would probably come into the fight but not on the Russian side - that old card doesn't play in 'real politik'. They have always wanted the oil and mineral assets in their neighboring Siberia. ..and once they do come in and Russia is in a two front war - they are toast. With a population of 600 million (Europe and America) on their West flank and a Billion on their East and the manufacturing might of both - oh yes, even the almighty Russia is toast. The Russians have been beaten before by a coalition and could be again and that is all that is necessary to get Putin off the throne because he is damn dangerous to the World and Russia.

    The problem with Russia, especially this Russian, is they never want a level playing field in International affairs and their belief that might makes right - always. I worked with them Bosnia and Kosovo, studied them for most my career, speak their language - Hell - I even married one! I believe Putin will go down in history as one of the greatest Russians that ever lived. Let's face it - he saved Russia during the collapse and personally I was a great admirer of his and thought he would FINALLY bring Russia into the International community. But no, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Putin's plan is to become a super-power again (a fantasy but that's a different topic) and restore the Soviet Union not geographically perhaps but through fear and political ties. Now, Putin is just like Hitler in my book and needs to be dealt with because he is not going away.

    Look, I like Russians (they're a lot like Americans) and have lived and worked with them and even have family there and yes, I visited there and not just some tourist area in Moscow. I have seen real Russia. Currently, the common Russian is hurting from the sanctions - bad. To prove that just look at the current exchange rate of the Ruble: 1 Ruble = $.015 or $1 = 66.5 Russian Rubles that's an exchange rate of a third world country! And, this is the reasons of Flybys and anything else that stir patriot fervor. Would you like to know what Pravda said about those? They said, "the America makes excellent soldiers and make war well but their psychology cannot match the Russian who cares not if he dies for his motherland." Good stuff yes if your country's is in a financial crisis brought on by your government actions. He invaded the Ukraine not because of the ethic Russian people or their desires it was for Sevastopol's warm water navy base. Why pay for something if 'might makes right.' And, by the West doing nothing...ensures that we will be hearing from him again...just like Heer Hitler.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2016
  14. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    A well thought out and considered reply. More to follow
     
  15. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++

    Uh-oh. I am in real trouble now. LOL!!! But, honestly, the myth of the undefeatable Soviet Empire is a thing of the past and it certainly does not carry over to Russians - with a population of 145M with negative growth and a measly one-trick pony economy that is in serious trouble.

    BTW Wife read me more about what Pravda is saying today and the latest from the Moscow state run news paper is that the 'USA military has a lot of deadline equipment' which probably is closer to the truth that we would like to admit but this is what happens after 15 years of war on two fronts.
     
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  16. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++

    @UncleMorgan
    "Never forget that Putin is (publicly) a very high-ranked Judo master who still trains rigorously. That alone is positive proof that he has the mind of a conqueror and the heart of a howling wolf. In fact, he is probably also at the very least a Spetsnaz-level expert in the Russian combat style called Systema, which I consider to be very possibly the best in the world."

    And, he doesn't drink! Dunno how he can be Russian if he doesn't drink but there it is...
     
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  17. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    No trouble. What you have put forward is soundly reasoned, and respectfully presented. You did not attack me personally, and challenging an idea rather than merely ridiculing (as some others have a wont to do here) the proponent is entirely legitimate and acceptable in my view. If fewer people were so precious about the ideas they hold onto, that rightly or wrongly they believe to be true, and less affronted by their sacred cows being knocked over, the more productive the discussion might become.
     
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  18. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    It never ceases to create a smile on my face when I see the effects of social programming. Of course, I do not smile because I am pleased --I merely smile to keep from weeping. Is it a show of strength to blow up airplanes and bomb buildings? Perhaps it is strength to shoot them pesky "enemy" airplanes down to show them who they are messing with! Is this your thinking, or is it yet another programmed thought, delivered by government mandated schooling and countless hours of social indoctrination? Every thought process you "think" you have, is most likely derived through crafted information. You can still have original thoughts, but chances are that if you already adhere to a political paradigm (such as Conservative or Liberal) you will follow the talking points and regurgitated platform rhetoric simply because that's how you are programmed. Perhaps you're so old that you still cling to the image of a brave American beating up the sniveling Nazi routine, freeing the world from oppression and fascism. The thing is, you've been shoveled a pile of dung and told it's gourmet chocolate truffles for so long, the typical Americans breath smells like shit because they've been deep-throating a lie for so long and never bothering to ask for the tip. What I am saying, in plain English, is the true fascism exists here at home, your fearless leaders were all puppets for hire working toward establishing a global corporate empire, and every perceived "enemy" you have ever seen televised and broadcast was, and continues to be just a creation of the established corporate oligarchy who rules over your lives and dictates the content of your reality. You watch football and other professional sports, where the theme of the game is to war with an opponent on a field of battle, and the spectators cheer their favorite team onward. Some will say it was greed which killed America. Others will claim it was ignorance and fear. Whether it be from irony or divine fate, the prognosis will always tend to be the same --it's nationalistic pride, and it's malignant. You may see what you think is real, but I only see 1's and 0's --I only see slaves willing to cheer on their despotic rulers while they live in squalor...loving their enslavement just as long as the Colosseum continues to put on games.

    If you want war with Russia, it's only because you've received that particular message and it was downloaded into what you perceive to be your own brain. It is followed with feelings and emotions, which are also part of the program to give it depth and substance. These electrical impulses will continue to feed your senses with virtually anything and everything because it's supposed to distract you from realizing what you really are. You've been asleep for a very long time now, and I need to leave before it creates an impression that you may find too uncomfortable.

    Wars don't simply happen because of good vs. evil struggling to exist. They don't happen because one greedy nation wants something the other has. Wars don't happen because a government becomes evil and just needs to be fixed. Wars don't happen because of any reason you can perceive within the matrix. Every war of modern times serves only to empower the corporate cartels, their oligarchy, and the global enterprise. Wars happen so the NFL can showcase their best teams and make lots of money from your continued interest. So, the next time you decide to get out your war drum set and feel like playing a tune, please remember your role, and try not to disturb the neighbors --they're busy sleeping, too.

    After digesting the comments, it seems perspective appears to be missing from this discussion. Please allow me to elaborate:

    you <-- politicians <-- corporations <-- Private Banking Cartel <--(?)
     
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  19. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

     
  20. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++

    @Brokor "... into what you perceive to be your own brain." Imagine that and I thought for all these years in was mine. Gosh, silly me. I thank you for your attempt to enlighten me with your well composed gibberish. I found it very entertaining but a bit out of touch with reality. And, while I believe that many if not most wars are for some sort of gain (politically, land, minerals, wealth, etc.) by 'private banking cartel' and/or their followers, there are some wars that do not fall into that category and are necessary. So, the next time you decide to get out your condescending, greater than thou, snide matrix-style drum and play us a tune...don't. It won't be well received, certainly not in that manner. But, it was an entertaining read, I will give you that...
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2016
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