Iranian "scholars" to evaluate holocaust

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Tango3, Dec 11, 2006.


  1. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

  2. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    Funny.



    What else can we evaluate?

    Sarah Brady could evaluate gun rights.
    Haliburton could evaluate government contract corruption.
    Dick Cheney could evaluate gun safety rules.
    Michael Jackson could evaluate over-use of plastic surgery.
    George Bush could evaluate the Bill of Rights.
    Pfizer could evaluate over-medicating people.
    Exxon could evaluate alternative power sources.
    OJ Simpson could evaluate holes in the judicial system.

    All kinds of possibilities.
     
  3. TailorMadeHell

    TailorMadeHell Lurking Shadow Creature

    Iran's president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, stirred outrage in the West last year when he stated on several occasions that the Holocaust, in which six million Jews perished at the hands of the Nazis, was either greatly exaggerated or an outright myth. He also called more than once for Israel to be wiped off the map.'

    Mr. Mohammadi said the conference would “provide the opportunity for scholars from both sides to give their papers in freedom and without preconceived ideas.

    The conference does not mean that Iran “denies the crimes of Hitler,” he added. “Since we are not accused and responsible for the Holocaust, we are an impartial judge.”

    Mr. Mohammadi dismissed the notion that the seminar could promote anti-Semitism, saying anti-Semitism was a Western phenomenon. The proof for that, he said, was Iran’s community of 25,000 Jews.

    So let me get this straight. There is a community of 25,000 Jews in Iran. The president of Iran has called the holocaust greatly exaggerated and quite possibly a myth. They say that the reports given would be not influenced. And they say they are an impartial judge.

    What part of double talk don't they understand? I'm telling you what, just think if the Jews had photoshop back then. They could have did a much better job of killing American and English Soldiers, printing up pictures of gruesome deaths, and even could have made movies with more clarity. They could have made better fake propaganda if they had the technology of today.

    I am beginning to think I know where crack originated. Iran seems to be smoking a lot of it. The only idiots that deny the holocaust happened are the white supremicists and muslims. The muslims hate the Jews and the white supremicists aka neo nazis, also hate the Jews. What's that let you know? To me, they are both idiots.

    This is just a waste of time for morons to gather and pat themselves on the back for living and thinking in a bubble of myth. It happened, it's real, move on. So if they aren't trying to blow us up, they are trying to make us believe in fairy tales. Someone needs a nice nuke, I mean hug. [soap]
     
  4. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    It never ceases to amaze me how people can react so passionately when something they have been conditioned to accept is questioned.
    Ole Pavlov would be proud to see how his experiments have been put into practical application today. To the extent that millions of people around the world have this knee jerk, disgust, outraged reaction if any details of the "Holocaust" story are questioned.
    They,without examineing any of the evidence, automatically assail and disregard those who attempt to bring to light many of the discrepeancys of the accepted version.
    To the point that it is against the law in many European countries to dare question it.
    When anything becomes so sacrosanct and above inspection that to do so can and has landed people in jail, then there must be something to hide. There definately is something wrong there.

    Nothing nor no one should ever be above debate. Not in a free society. When the right to question is outlawed, then tyranny prevails.

    When many experts, historians, academics and scientists say that the "official" story just isn't plausible. Then I think any rational person would want to see their evidence. And only the closed minded, conditioned masses would refuse to even hear it.

    When even the official jewish holocaust society admits that the 6 million number is a gross exaggeration.
    When the story of using human skin for lampshades and other extreme stories have been proven to be false.
    When testimony from guards and survivors all state that the majority of deaths in the camps were from disease and starvation due to the immense allied bombing campaign. And cremation was being used to try and stem the spread of disease.
    When none of the thousands of German documents have ever documented a "Final Solution" extermination program.
    When all of these facts are ignored and myths vehemently defended then something is not right in the world.

    I am not a white supremacist or a muslim and I have serious doubts about the hollywood, mythified version of history. I am not afraid to examine any evidence presented.
    Following is an article that presents food for thought.
     
  5. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    Nearly everyone has heard that the Germans killed some six million Jews in Europe during the Second World War. American television, motion pictures, newspapers and magazines hammer away on this theme. In Washington, DC, an enormous official Holocaust Museum has been built.
    Scholars Challenge Holocaust Story
    During the past decade, though, more and more "revisionist" historians, including respected scholars such as Dr. Arthur Butz of Northwestern University, Prof. Robert Faurisson of the University of Lyon in France and best-selling British historian David Irving, have been challenging the widely-accepted extermination story.

    They do not dispute the fact that large numbers of Jews were deported to concentration camps and ghettos, or that many Jews died or were killed during the Second World War. Revisionist scholars have, however, presented considerable evidence to show that there was no German program to exterminate Europe's Jews, that numerous claims of mass killings in "gas chambers" are false, and that the estimate of six million Jewish wartime dead is an irresponsible exaggeration.

    Many Holocaust Claims Abandoned
    Revisionists point out that the Holocaust story has changed quite a lot over the years. Many extermination claims that were once widely accepted have been quietly dropped in recent years.

    At one time it was alleged that the Germans gassed Jews at Dachau, Buchenwald and other concentration camps in Germany proper. That part of the extermination story proved so untenable that it was abandoned more than 20 years ago.

    No serious historian now supports the once supposedly proven story of "extermination camps" in the territory of the old German Reich. Even famed "Nazi hunter" Simon Wiesenthal has acknowledged that "there were no extermination camps on German soil." (note 1)

    Prominent Holocaust historians now claim that masses of Jews were gassed at just six camps in what is now Poland: Auschwitz, Majdanek, Treblinka, Sobibor, Chelmno and Belzec. However, the "evidence" presented for "gassings" at these six camps is not qualitatively different than the "evidence" for alleged "gassings" at the camps in Germany proper.

    At the great Nuremberg trial of 1945-1946 and during the decades following the end of the Second World War, Auschwitz (especially Auschwitz-Birkenau) and Majdanek (Lublin) were generally regarded as the most important "death camps." For example, the Allies alleged at Nuremberg that the Germans killed four million at Auschwitz and another 1.5 million at Majdanek. Today, no reputable historian accepts these fantastic figures.

    In addition, more and more striking evidence has been presented in recent years that simply cannot be reconciled with the allegations of mass exterminations at these camps. For example, detailed aerial reconnaissance photographs taken of Auschwitz-Birkenau on several random days in 1944 (during the height of the alleged extermination period there) were made public by the CIA in 1979. They show no trace of the piles of corpses, smoking chimneys and masses of Jews awaiting death, all of which have been alleged and would have been clearly visible if Auschwitz had indeed been an extermination center.

    We now also know that the postwar "confession" of Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Höss, which is a crucial part of the Holocaust extermination story, is a false statement that was obtained by torture. (note 2)

    Other Absurd Holocaust Claims
    At one time it was also seriously claimed that the Germans exterminated Jews with electricity and steam, and that they manufactured soap from Jewish corpses. For example, at Nuremberg the United States charged that the Germans killed Jews at Treblinka, not in gas chambers, as is now claimed, but by steaming them to death in "steam chambers." (note 3)

    Such bizarre stories have also been quietly abandoned in recent years.

    Disease Claimed Many Inmates
    The Holocaust extermination story is superficially plausible. Everyone has seen the horrific photos of dead and dying inmates taken at Bergen-Belsen, Nordhausen and other concentration camps when they were liberated by British and American forces in the final weeks of the war in Europe. These unfortunate people were victims, not of an extermination program, but of disease and malnutrition brought on by the complete collapse of Germany in the final months of the war. Indeed, if there had been an extermination program, the Jews found by Allied forces at the end of the war would have long since been killed.

    In the face of the advancing Soviet forces, large numbers of Jews were evacuated during the final months of the war from eastern camps and ghettos to the remaining camps in western Germany. These camps quickly became terribly overcrowded, which severely hampered efforts to prevent the spread of epidemics. Furthermore, the breakdown of the German transportation system made it impossible to supply adequate food and medicine to the camps.

    Captured German Documents
    At the end of the Second World War, the Allies confiscated a tremendous quantity of German documents dealing with Germany's wartime Jewish policy, which was sometimes officially referred to as the "final solution." But not a single German document has ever been found which even refers to an extermination program. To the contrary, the documents clearly show that the German "final solution" policy was one of emigration and deportation, not extermination.

    Consider, for example, the confidential German Foreign Office memorandum of August 21, 1942. (note 4) "The present war gives Germany the opportunity and also the duty of solving the Jewish problem in Europe," the memorandum notes. The policy "to promote the evacuation of the Jews [from Europe] in closest cooperation with the agencies of the Reichsfuehrer SS [Himmler] is still in force." The memo noted that "the number of Jews deported in this way to the East did not suffice to cover the labor needs."

    The document quotes German Foreign Minister von Ribbentrop as saying that "at the end of this war, all Jews would have to leave Europe. This was an unalterable decision of the Fuehrer [Hitler] and also the only way to master this problem, as only a global and comprehensive solution could be applied and individual measures would not help very much."

    The memorandum concludes by stating that the "deportations [of Jews to the East] are a further step on the way of the total solution ... The deportation to the [Polish] General Government is a temporary measure. The Jews will be moved on further to the occupied [Soviet] eastern territories as soon as the technical conditions for it are given."

    This unambiguous document, and others like it, are routinely suppressed or ignored by those who uphold the Holocaust extermination story.

    Unreliable Testimony
    Holocaust historians rely heavily on so-called "survivor testimony" to support the extermination story. But such "evidence" is notoriously unreliable. As one Jewish historian has pointed out, "most of the memoirs and reports [of "Holocaust survivors"] are full of preposterous verbosity, graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic effects, overestimated self-inflation, dilettante philosophizing, would-be lyricism, unchecked rumors, bias, partisan attacks and apologies." (note 5)
    Hitler and the 'Final Solution'
    There is no documentary evidence that Adolf Hitler ever gave an order to exterminate the Jews, or that he knew of any extermination program. Instead, the record shows that the German leader wanted the Jews to leave Europe, by emigration if possible and by deportation if necessary.

    A document found after the war in the files of the Reich Ministry of Justice records his thinking on the Jews. In the spring of 1942, State Secretary Schlegelberger noted in a memorandum that Hitler's Chief of Chancellery, Dr. Hans Lammers, had informed him: "The Fhrer has repeatedly declared to him [Lammers] that he wants to see the solution of the Jewish problem postponed until after the war is over." (note 6)

    And on July 24, 1942, Hitler emphasized his determination to remove all Jews from Europe after the war: "The Jews are interested in Europe for economic reasons, but Europe must reject them, if only out of self-interest, because the Jews are racially tougher. After this war is over, I will rigorously hold to the view ... that the Jews will have to leave and emigrate to Madagascar or some other Jewish national state." (note 7)

    Himmler's SS and the Camps
    Jews were an important part of Germany's wartime labor force, and it was in Germany's interest to keep them alive.

    The head of the SS camp administration office sent a directive dated Dec. 28, 1942, to every concentration camp, including Auschwitz. It sharply criticized the high death rate of inmates due to disease, and ordered that "camp physicians must use all means at their disposal to significantly reduce the death rate in the various camps." Furthermore, it ordered: "The camp doctors must supervise more often than in the past the nutrition of the prisoners and, in cooperation with the administration, submit improvement recommendations to the camp commandants ... The camp doctors are to see to it that the working conditions at the various labor places are improved as much as possible."

    Finally, the directive stressed that "The Reichsfhrer SS [Himmler] has ordered that the death rate absolutely must be reduced." (note 8)

    The head of the SS department that supervised the concentration camps, Richard Gluecks, sent a circular letter to each camp commandant dated January 20, 1943. In it he ordered: "As I have already pointed out, every means must be used to lower the death rate in the camp." (note 9)

    Six Million?
    There is no real evidence for the incessantly repeated claim that the Germans exterminated six million Jews. It is clear, though, that millions of Jews "survived" German rule during the Second World War, including many who were interned in Auschwitz and other so-called "extermination camps." This fact alone should raise serious doubts about the extermination story.

    A leading newspaper of neutral Switzerland, the daily Baseler Nachrichten, carefully estimated in June 1946 that no more than 1.5 million European Jews could have perished under German rule during the war. (note 10)

    One-Sided 'Holocaustomania'
    Even after more than 40 years, the stream of Holocaust films and books shows no sign of diminishing.

    This relentless media campaign, which Jewish historian Alfred Lilienthal calls "Holocaustomania," portrays the fate of the Jews during the Second World War as the central event of history. There is no end to the heavy-handed motion pictures, the simplistic television specials, the vindictive hunt for "Nazi war criminals," the one-sided "educational courses," and the self-righteous appearances by politicians and celebrities at Holocaust "memorial services."

    Britain's chief rabbi, Immanuel Jakobovits, has accurately described the Holocaust campaign as "an entire industry, with handsome profits for writers, researchers, film-makers, monument builders, muse-um planners and even politicians." He added that some rabbis and theologians are "partners in this big business." (note 11)

    Non-Jewish victims just don't merit the same concern. For example, there are no American memorials, "study centers," or annual observances for Stalin's victims, who vastly outnumber Hitler's.

    Who Benefits?
    The perpetual Holocaust media blitz is routinely used to justify enormous American support for Israel and to excuse otherwise inexcusable Israeli policies, even when they conflict with American interests.

    The sophisticated and well-financed Holocaust media campaign is crucially important to the interests of Israel, which owes its existence to massive annual subsidies from American taxpayers. As Prof. W.D. Rubinstein of Australia has candidly acknowledged: "If the Holocaust can be shown to be a ÔZionist myth,' the strongest of all weapons in Israel's propaganda armory collapses." (note 12)

    Jewish history teacher Paula Hyman of Columbia University has observed: "With regard to Israel, the Holocaust may be used to forestall political criticism and suppress debate; it reinforces the sense of Jews as an eternally beleaguered people who can rely for their defense only upon themselves. The invocation of the suffering endured by the Jews under the Nazis often takes the place of rational argument, and is expected to convince doubters of the legitimacy of current Israeli government policy." (note 13)

    One major reason that the Holocaust story has proven so durable is that the governments of the major powers also have a vested interest in maintaining it. The victorious powers of the Second World War -- the United States, Soviet Russia and Britain -- have a stake in portraying the defeated Hitler regime as negatively as possible. The more evil and satanic the Hitler regime appears, the more noble and justified seems the Allied cause.

    For many Jews, the Holocaust has become both a flourishing business and a kind of new religion, as noted Jewish author and newspaper publisher Jacobo Timerman points out in his book, The Longest War. He reports that many Israelis, using the word Shoah, which is Hebrew for Holocaust, joke that "There's no business like Shoah business." (note 14)

    The Holocaust media campaign portrays Jews as totally innocent victims, and non-Jews as morally retarded and unreliable beings who can easily turn into murderous Nazis under the right circumstances. This self-serving but distorted portrayal is meant to strengthen Jewish group solidarity and self-awareness.

    A key lesson of the Holocaust story for Jews is that non-Jews are never completely trustworthy. If a people as cultured and as educated as the Germans could turn against the Jews, so the thinking goes, than surely no non-Jewish nation can ever be completely trusted. The Holocaust message is thus one of contempt for humanity.

    Holocaust Hatemongering
    The Holocaust story is sometimes used to promote hatred and hostility, particularly against the German people as a whole, eastern Europeans and the leadership of the Roman Catholic church.

    The well-known Jewish writer, Elie Wiesel, is a former Auschwitz inmate who served as chairman of the official U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council. He received the 1986 Nobel Peace Prize. This dedicated Zionist wrote in his book, Legends of Our Time: "Every Jew, somewhere in his being, should set apart a zone of hate -- healthy, virile hate -- for what the German personifies and for what persists in the German." (note 15)

    Let Both Sides Be Heard
    As even defenders of the orthodox extermination story concede, skepticism about the Holocaust story has grown dramatically in recent years.

    Responding to this trend, officials in some countries -- including France and Israel -- have made it a crime to challenge the Holocaust story. Revisionists in France and Germany have been heavily fined for their views. Teachers in the United States and elsewhere have been summarily dismissed from their positions for daring to doubt the Holocaust story. Criminal thugs have brutally attacked prominent Holocaust revisionists; one was even killed for his views.

    In spite of desperate restrictions on free speech, frantic media attacks against those who "deny the Holocaust," a seemingly perpetual Holocaust media campaign, and even physical attacks, considerable headway is being made. More and more thoughtful people in the United States and around the world are willing to express doubts about at least some of the more sensational Holocaust claims.

    Summary
    The Holocaust extermination story is breaking down as suppressed evidence becomes better known, and as more people become aware of the facts about what is certainly the most hyped and politicized chapter of modern history.

    Artificially maintaining the hatreds and passions of the past prevents genuine reconciliation and lasting peace.

    Revisionism promotes historical awareness and international understanding. That's why the work of the Institute for Historical Review is so important and deserves your support.

    Notes
    Books and Bookmen, London, April 1975, p. 5, and in Stars and Stripes (Europe), Jan. 24, 1993, p. 14.
    Ruper Butler, Legions of Death (England: 1983), pp. 235-237, and R. Faurisson, Journal of Historical Review, Winter 1986-87, pp. 389-403.
    Nuremberg document PS-3311 (USA-293). IMT blue series, Vol. 32, pp. 153-158; IMT, Vol. 3, pp. 566- 568.; NMT green series, Vol. 5, pp. 1133, 1134.
    Nuremberg document NG-2586-J. NMT green series, Vol. 13, pp. 243-249.
    Samuel Gringauz in Jewish Social Studies (New York), January 1950, Vol. 12, p. 65.
    Nuremberg document PS-4025. D. Irving, G°ring: A Biography (New York: 1989), p. 349.
    H. Picker, Hitlers Tischgesprche im Fuehrerhaupt quartier (Stuttgart: 1976), p. 456.
    Nuremberg document PS-2171, Annex 2; NC and A red series, Vol. 4, pp. 833-834.
    Nuremberg document NO-1523; NMT green series, Vol. 5, pp. 372-373.
    Baseler Nachrichten, June 13, 1946, p. 2.
    H. Shapiro, "Jakobovits," Jerusalem Post (Israel), Nov. 26, 1987, p. 1.
    Quadrant (Australia), Sept. 1979, p. 27.
    New York Times Magazine, Sept. 14, 1980, p. 79.
    The Longest War (New York: Vintage, 1982), p. 15.
    Legends of Our Time (New York: Schocken Books, 1982), chap. 12, p. 142.
    <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" />
    Mark Weber is editor of The Journal of Historical Review, published by the Institute for Historical Review. He studied history at the University of Illinois (Chicago), the University of Munich, Portland State University, and Indiana University (M.A., 1977). For five days in March 1988, he testified as a recognized expert witness on the "final solution" and the Holocaust issue in a Toronto District Court case. He is the author of many published articles, reviews and essays on various aspects of modern European history. Weber has been a guest on numerous radio talk shows, and on the nationally-syndicated "Montel Williams" TV program.

    For a current catalog, with a complete listing of books and audio and video tapes, send one dollar to:

    Institute For Historical Review
    Post Office Box 2739
    Newport Beach, California 92659

     
  6. RightHand

    RightHand Pioneer in a New World Moderator Founding Member

    I have always viewed the 6-million figure as a possibility rather than a probability and count in the number those non-Jewish people who were seen as undesirables by the fuhrer. People tend to forget the non-Jewish victims.
     
  7. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    I have just been having an argument with the misses over this. She thinks that by questioning the facts I am denying the truth. By suggesting that the story has been inflated and used for political purposes in no way denegrates the horror suffered by millions of innocent people under the Nazi's.
    It is the distortion of the truth that I abhor. War is hell and innocent people suffer. But the ultimate degradation is to politicize their pain and suffering.
     
  8. RightHand

    RightHand Pioneer in a New World Moderator Founding Member

    As my dad was fond of saying, "Truer words were never spoken."
     
  9. TailorMadeHell

    TailorMadeHell Lurking Shadow Creature

    I agree that six million may be over stating things, though there is no doubt that this thing did happen and was condoned by Hitler. If he didn't have any clue that this was happening, I guess he thought all those graves were for German soldiers who died in combat?

    They didn't have a 'final solution'? Death is quite final and how many were put to death because they were merely Jews. There were also non-jews put to death. Those who didn't fit into the category of sheeple, those who were homos, those who hid people out in their houses. There were not one type of people safe from the Nazis, not even Nazis. Nobody was safe from the SS and that was a creation of Hitler's reich.

    It is much akin to our alphabet agencies. Ultimately it is the governments control of those agencies that is lacking. If Hitler didn't know there were executions of Jews based on the fact that they were Jews, then I submit that Bush didn't know about the torture or humiliation at any of our installations across the world. A leader whether directly involved in said executions or turning a blind eye to them is just as responsible for them as the personnel that does it. How can you call yourself the head cheese and not know what is going on around you?

    As far as the deaths being attributed to disease and starvation, I can see that happen, though I doubt that all died because they couldn't get fed. And besides, what's up with the labeling them with stars or triangles or what have you? I mean did they do it so that those taking food to the prisoners would know not to serve sausage to a Jew? It was just a way to insure they were fed the right food as befitted their religion I guess.

    I do not think that the holocaust was so bad as the numbers suggest, because keep in mind numbers are manipulated every day to make the results you want come out. I am saying that it did indeed happen and to sit around trying to say it never happened is definitely wrong. I am saying that those who would make everyone believe the Jews are all big liars that put on a skit for the media just so they could get world attention are insane.

    It is one thing to sit down and call someone on making too much out of something, such as that 'fish you caught' and it is entirely another to want to wipe the history from the pages. I see Iran is quite against the Jews. It is stated from their leaders mouth. I see also that they would have you believe this was just a movie. You can debate about how and the why, just don't fall into the 'it never happened' category.

    Thousands of Soldiers that were there and witnessed it and even gave their own accounts of it cannot all be wrong.

    I'm sure if you ask the muslims about the crusades you would get a bigger number than was actually true. And they still haven't forgotten that little bit of history. Though do you see them saying the crusades didn't happen? They sure want to belittle the holocaust though.

    So the fanatic muslims are blowing people up and the Jews are prepared to nuke any of them. Sounds about even to me.

    Muslims - 'victims' of the crusades, that holy war put on by the church.
    Jews - 'victims' of the holocaust, that rising to power of the reich put on by Hitler

    Both have had a 'holocaust' though you don't see the Jews blowing people up with carbombs. Israel has their stretch of land that they want to keep and they will and have used force to keep it. The muslims have many tracts of land and many countries. Are they happy to have that and live peacefully? No, these morons won't be happy until the entire middle east is in their grasp and everyone around is either muslim or dead. Which ones would you suggest America back?

    I vote for Israel. That's just my thoughts on it.
     
  10. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    I agree TMH that sticking your head in the sand and pretending something didn't happen is ridiculous. What I am ranting about is making something, anything, so etched in stone that it is illegal to even question it. I see that happening today with 9/11. If you dare question the official version of events then you are a "Conspiracy nut". Even tho there are thousands of people spanning all walks of life who have doubts about what happened there. Proffessors, engineers, pilots. Not the mindless, tin foil hat types that the media would have you believe.

    It is the culture of unquestioning acceptance that I have a problem with. Nothing should be above inspection and review. If it is truth then it will stand up to scrutiny. If it isn't, then it needs to be debunked.
    If it is prejudiced twisting of facts and biased manipulation then exposing it to the light will reveal it.

    As for the Muslims they cetainly have an agenda and I have no interest in what they have to say. And I know, I lived there, how they feel about the crusades. But, to my knowledge it isn't against the law anywhere to question the crusades, the inquisition, the conquistadors, or any other event in history. But it is the Holocaust. That's what I can't accept.
     
  11. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    We know it happened because the nazis filmed and documented everything with typical german precision...While stationed inGermany ( after the wall came down) I got to to berlin once and the camp"Sachsenhousen" outside berlin. it was liberated by the soviets.One of the things they used prisoners for was testing bootsoles there was a cobblestone semi circle and prisoners where forced to walk back and forth al day every day on little to nofood ,until death.How do we know"/ films and record, prisoners were put into ice water to test flight suit designs for the luftwaffe, body temps were documented until death. petrol and parafinn( gasoline and dieselfuel) were injected into prisoners and they were watched photographed and symptoms documented until death inorder to find the least expensive method of killing.( photos/record).

    buchenwald:(sorry had to go pickup my teenager). Biggest thing is walking thru the still standing "Arbeit macht frei" gate is like putting a cold wet grey SOMBER cloak. the place just feels overwhelmingly sad and evil there is absolutely no sound even from the other "tourists who were there when we were.". Mosyt of the wire is rusted off and gone but the curving concrete pillars still stand.

    These places have visitors centers with displays of photographs, log books and and small movie theatres wehere they run movies ( in german of course) taken from the camp and after liberation. Toughestdisplay was the pile of childrens shoes. There`was a pile of eyeglasses.a couple of crystal radios made from stuff found around the camp( galena was found in thedirt and used for the detector diode).

    Its just surreal being there. We saw rooms with hooks in the ceilling where prsoners where hung by their bound wrists until the shoulders twisted out( (dislocated) The shower heads and the vents that were closed while( the gas was introduced, we saw empty cans labled zyklon-B.We did walk through the actual crematorium.On the otherside of the camp, There was a "garrot bench " with a plaque marking the spot a 11 either poles or brits were executed. sititting down feet in stocks, rope noose around their necks going over a pulley to a hand-cranked "boat trailer winch"( no quick snap of the neck there.).

    I don't know what experts can claim its all bs. There was a room with a pallet on the floor against a wall and a measuring stick on the wall with a little lever that flipped out to measure height; next to the stick a slot about 1/2 wide and 12" tall (near the pallet was a garden hose and floor drain) .. in the movie you saw there was a closet on the opposite side of the wall with a young SS trooper and a handgun. People calmly backed up to be measured and caught a 9mm in the base of the skull.

    I can see where you 're coming from about the danger of something being too sacrilidgeous to even discuss...But Some things don't need to be re-examined ...I was over there 90-93, my retirement "at port" was early '94.just missed ya righthand.
     
  12. RightHand

    RightHand Pioneer in a New World Moderator Founding Member

    While in German in 1987, I took my daughter to visit the Dachau camp which I felt was an important part of her education into the real world and what can happen "when good people do nothing." It was in that moment that she began to understand what no history book or lecture could ever impart, that evil exists and each of us has to be prepared to fight lest we succumb. It matters not whether the deaths in those camps numbered in the thousands or in the millions, their mere existance is testimony.
     
  13. TailorMadeHell

    TailorMadeHell Lurking Shadow Creature

    I agree on both counts. I don't see why people are being arrested for the mere examination of 'after-the-fact' evidence or asking questions. That is just wrong, though why it's done is beyond me. I also see that it is over and done. Do you think any of the survivors of the camps who were almost killed or witnessed their families killed appreciate this running rampant across the front page of newspapers or on the TV? We have this morbid obsession with death. When someone dies, we don't let them rest after all involved parties are brought to justice. This commentor wants to say this and so on down the line until even the deaths themselves are so entwined in our history that you can't for one minute breath without hearing about it. How many times must Princess Di get in that car crash? How many times must we search for Jimmy Hoffa? How many times must we ask, 'Were there two shooters of JFK or maybe three?'

    The past is the past and it is done. From the past we are supposed to learn lessons, not by constantly viewing and harping on it, we must learn from it and move on if we are to become better. One holocaust is as horrific as any other though why keep it going? The Nazis were arrested, most of the big wigs, and tried. Hitler, bit a bullet, and that was his end. You cannot heal as long as you keep the tragedy bound tightly to you, because in the end you will be dragged down by the weight of it. I see this as not a mere quest for information, I see it as another way of belittling the tragedy.

    And no, there aren't those who get arrested for speaking of the crusades, though there are those who die still because of them. Maybe one day we can move on from this, and turn around the legislation or whatever that is causing these people to be arrested for even talking of the holocaust, though until that time I guess this debate could go on forever.

    I say let those wounded try to get past their wounds and not drag them through it again. Those who are just seeking another propaganda machine aren't worth anything anyways. There will always be hatred in some hearts for the Jews and that may never change, though I pray that we do not fall into a category such as that over something that needs to be finally laid to rest.

    Just my thoughts.
     
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