Iraqs' oil the pay off all along??

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Tango3, Apr 13, 2007.

  1. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    fridays prison planet: As us moves to secure large reserves for "oil council" control, iraqi's protest: us out..
    Classic case of I told you so's???..

    War on Terror looks like a fraud
    Winnipeg Sun
    Friday, April 13, 2007​
    Contrary to the "patriots" who try to use the deaths of our soldiers in Afghanistan to stifle debate on Canada's involvement in the War on Terror, I would say that as new evidence presents itself, we would indeed be cowards to ignore it simply because we've lost troops in the field and are therefore blindly committed to the mission. ​
    And new evidence is piling up around us, arguably strong enough to declare the whole War on Terror an undeniable fraud.
    Virtually ignored by mainstream media, the Americans showed their hand this year with the new Iraqi oil law, now making its way through Iraq's parliament.
    The law -- which tens of thousands of Iraqis marched peacefully against on Monday when they called for the immediate expulsion of U.S. forces -- would transfer control of one of the largest oil reserves on the planet from Baghdad to Big Oil, delivering "the prize" at last that Vice-President Dick Cheney famously talked about in 1999 when he was CEO of Halliburton.
    "The key point of the law," wrote Mother Jones' Washington correspondent James Ridgeway on March 1, "is that Iraq's immense oil wealth (115 billion barrels of proven reserves, third in the world after Saudi Arabia and Iran) will be under the iron rule of a fuzzy 'Federal Oil and Gas Council' boasting 'a panel of oil experts from inside and outside Iraq.' That is, nothing less than predominantly U.S. Big Oil executives.
    "The law represents no less than institutionalized raping and pillaging of Iraq's oil wealth. It represents the death knell of nationalized Iraqi resources, now replaced by production sharing agreements, which translate into savage privatization and monster profit rates of up to 75% for (basically U.S.) Big Oil. Sixty-five of Iraq's roughly 80 oilfields already known will be offered for Big Oil to exploit."
    While the U.S. argues that the oil deal will give Iraqis their shot at "freedom and stability," the International Committee of the Red Cross reported this week that millions of Iraqis are in a "disastrous" situation that continues to deteriorate, with "mothers appealing for someone to pick up the bodies littering the street so their children will be spared the horror of looking at them on their way to school."
    Four years after the invasion, it's becoming pretty clear that Iraq has been "pacified" solely for the purpose of economic aggression. Humanitarian considerations are moot. The awful plight of Iraq's one million Christians, who have no place in the new Iraq, underscores this ugly truth.
    Afghanistan, meanwhile, has given the U.S. a strategic military beachhead in Central Asia (which "American primacy" advocates called for in the '90s) and it was quietly reported in November that plans are being accelerated for a $3.3-billion natural gas pipeline "to help Afghanistan become an energy bridge in the region."
    With many Americans (including academics and former top U.S. government officials) now questioning even the physical facts of 9/11 and seriously disputing the "militant Islam" spin, with the media more brain-dead than it's been in our lifetimes, now is not the time for jingoism and blind faith in the likes of Cheney, George W. Bush and Robert Gates.
    Our young men are worth more than that -- aren't they, Mr. Harper? <!--end-->
  2. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    I've never thought the "given" reasons were true, but do ya think it really is just as simple as "the oil"? I've begun "plot twisting" so much it's almost hard to accept an explanation that simple.

    Not that I'd actually doubt it or anything at this point.
  3. ripsnort

    ripsnort Monkey+++

    Oil fields all over the world, especially the super-giant fields in the Middle East - are peaking or declining in production. (the US peaked in 1970) The exact figures are not known because most members of OPEC and other national oil companies do not release figures (or honest figures) for production or reserves. The remaining oil is usually more difficult and more expensive to pump and lower in quality. Most of the earth has been explored with todays high technology and newly discovered fields are smaller in size and are pumped out quickly. It is very unlikely that any more super-giant fields will be found. National oil companies are pushing out the western oil companies.
    There is ONE country that has the second largest oil reserves in the world AND only 30% of the country has been explored. The oil is very close to the surface, easy and cheap to extract and is very high quality. Because of a history of war, UN sanctions and other factors its existing fields have not been pumped out much - they are nowhere near peak. Its the last and biggest oil treasure trove in the world, it may turn out to be bigger than Saudi Arabia.
    Its IRAQ!!!
    And now we have a military base on top of it.
    It took a federal court decision to get the papers of VP Cheney's Energy Policy Group of 2001 released - the maps showed that they had already divied up Iraq - what oil company got what part of Iraq - in 2001. The new Iraq constitution makes it clear private oil companies will have a big role in Iraq's future.
    1.) The oil companies certainly do recognize peak oil.
    2.) The (our) Empire is securing its fuel source.
    3.) Payback for nationalization.
    Sorry I went on so long, what was your question?
  4. Seawolf1090

    Seawolf1090 Retired Curmudgeonly IT Monkey Founding Member

    Well, looking at things pragmatically, somebody outside the country will control the oil there. EMPIRE is not yet dead! I'd prefer it be US! If the UN or the other Empires get their mits on it, prices will skyrocket worse than it will be if our homegrown jackals have it. Better the Devil we know . . .

    Not a PC way of thinking, but then nobody ever accused me of being PC.
  5. ozarkgoatman

    ozarkgoatman Resident goat herder

    The worlds oil feilds are peaking. You can bet there will be more wars to to gather up the remaining supplies of oil. This is only the begining ladies and gents. It going to be a rough and wooley ride to the bottom.

  6. ripsnort

    ripsnort Monkey+++

    Yeah, someone's going to be extracting it and someone's going to be using it. I think its America's last chance to secure cheap oil and remain a superpower, but it ain't going to work if the war keeps dragging out and costing megabucks.
  7. wolfmonk

    wolfmonk Monkey+++

    I'm not so sure about "cheap" since oil prices have done nothing but go up (And the oil company's profits have gone up even more). It's all relative, though, I suppose.
  8. BigO01

    BigO01 Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Re: Iraq's' oil the pay off all along??

    This is all nothing more than business as usual to screw the stupid American consumer and get antiwar people all exited .

    When we went to War for Kuwait they told us how they were second in oil reserves and production now it is Iraq , if we woke up and were at war with yuga bugo land they would tell us they had the most oil .

    In all of this BS they conveniently forget how after the breakup of the Soviet Union they told us they have vast reserves that compare as an ocean to a bathtub of Middle Eastern oil yet it isn't being tapped . WHY !

    Personally I am sick of all the politics as usual , for 20+ years they have whined about SSI yet both parties have had control and nothing has been done , same thing with Fuel and dependency on foreign oil crap .

    I had a coworker years ago who told me while he was in welding school in the 70's big companies had recruiters out for offshore oil rigs when asked about oil reserves he stated that America alone had enough reserves for hundreds of years but had slowed down utilizing them due to "other considerations" he couldn't discuss .

    Face it people in the past we needed the Arabs due to logistics and political reasons . Reasons like preventing or even winning WWIII if the Russians or Chinese ever launched a first strike with nukes .

    Along the way the big companies and politicians have all gotten together and decided they can screw us and there isn't a thing we can do about it when it comes to fuel . These reports of peak oil and all the other crap are nothing more then shell games to keep most people from seeing the truth .

    If all of this garbage were true they would have answers to these problems yet the only answer they can come up with is raise the prices and make more money .

    Think about it !
  9. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    Re: Iraq's' oil the pay off all along??

  10. ripsnort

    ripsnort Monkey+++

    Thank you for your reasoned response Minuteman, you covered most of what I wanted to say and more. I would add that with the aftermath of nationalization in the 1970s - the national oil companies and OPEC - that good info on production and reserves is harder to get. Also the western private oil companies now only control a minor part of global production.

    About them West Texas oil fields - I heard they was still producing a million gallons a day. Unfortunately its almost all water!!! And the Saudi super giant fields are also producing water.
    Also, even before the first Gulf War and the following UN sanctions, Iraq was not pumping their fields very hard because they were at war with Iran from 1980 to 88.

    Maybe Big00 could have his own rant page...
  11. RightHand

    RightHand Been There, Done That RIP 4/15/21 Moderator Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I'm afraid that I was one of those who didn't understand the true depth of the peak oil problem until I met Minuteman. Until that time, I had a fairly vague awareness but not a true understanding. I know manufacturing but I don't know oil.

    I'm grateful that Minuteman has taken the time to help all of us understand the true dynamics of this issue.
  12. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    One of the things that gets lost in the shuffle is that the many billions of revenue is not all profit for the execs; it is diluted many times over when it is distributed to the shares, and is not realized unless the shareholders liquidate. Not only that, but it is totally unfair to judge the gain without assessing the percentage of return on investment. I don't have those figures, but after tax I would guess it is not as large as the average real estate developer can show.
  13. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Nice thread guys, thanks minuteman for lending the benefit of your experience
    and knowledge of the oil industry...Now if we could find a reputable climatologist to put this "glob-al gorming" stuff to bed, I don't know who to believe anymore..
  14. ozarkgoatman

    ozarkgoatman Resident goat herder

    I've studied it alot and stand behind my statement. I don't have the knowelage that MM has but I've studied it alot, and believe that my statement is well founded.

  15. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    I have been thinking about Big001’s post and have a few more comments I’d like to make.
    This attitude is so prevalent today. And it is totally wrong. It is an example of people’s ignorance (from lack of knowledge, not lack of intelligence) of how the oil industry operates and of how oil is found and produced.
    Most people think of oil as these large underground lakes. The fact is that oil is embedded in layers of rock or sand.

    The oil that we have been producing the last 100 years is mainly found in a very porous shale or sand. When a well, or a borehole, is drilled into these formations the oil seeps out of these shale and sand layers and fills the hole. Then it is pumped to the surface.

    When you hear about these huge mega fields of oil containing billions of barrels of oil you have to know what type of oil they are talking about. The relatively easy to get oil, found in very porous formations, is the oil that is running out. But that doesn’t mean that all the oil in the world is running out.

    For example you might hear that there is more oil in Canada than in all of the Middle East.
    That is true. So why don’t we go get it? It must be an oil company conspiracy.

    The truth is that while there are billions of barrels of untapped oil in places like Canada and throughout the Rocky Mountain region of the U.S., there is a reason that it is untapped.

    These vast oil reserves in Canada are found in tar sands. And that is just exactly what it says, heavy, thick, gummy, tar. It is very difficult and expensive to produce. It does not flow like the oil that we have been producing in the past.

    It is so thick that you actually have to drill 3 wells to get one to produce any amount of recoverable oil. Two wells are drilled and heaters run into them to heat up the thick tar oil in the third well and make it possible to pump it to the surface. The only other way to produce it is to strip mine down to the sands and carry it to a processing plant that will heat it and extract the oil. Either way is 3 to 4 times more expensive to produce per barrel of oil than what we currently are producing. Not to mention that we would have to strip-mine half of Canada to get to it. So if you want to pay three times more per barrel and ergo 3 times as much per gallon of fuel, then it is available and can be brought to market.

    The oil in the Rocky Mountains is often counted in domestic reserve estimates. Making our national recoverable reserves much higher. But the rest of the story is that these billions of barrels of recoverable oil are found embedded in a dense oil bearing shale formation.

    And again is not easily recoverable. The rock must be mined and crushed to extract the oil from it. It does not flow like the oil that we have been producing. Are you ready to see the Rocky Mountains strip-mined?
    When we hear of these large oil deposits you invariably hear the comment "Why don’t they go and get it?" This reflects our national attitude towards energy. We have come to see it as an almost inalienable right, instead of what it really is, a consumer product.

    So how would we go and get it? The oil companies are not going to do it for free. Just for the "Right" of people to have cheap fuel. Like any commodity, if the market will support the price to produce it, at a profit then companies will produce it. If we are willing to pay 3 to 4 times more than what we are now for our fuel then "They" will go and get it.

    Another point is this, what about the people whose country these reserves are located in. Are they going to mind if we come in and "get it". Do we take the last of the worlds reserves by force? And if we did would it be to secure the right of Joe public to drive their SUV? Or would it be to keep our military and infrastructure running?

    The only other way to "Go and get it" would be to adopt communism and make all the worlds oil a communal farm. So who is going to be the collective workers? And how is it going to be fairly distributed? And by who? That system worked out well for the Soviet Union didn’t it? Are you willing to wait in line for hours for your allotment?

    So you see the problems. It seems like a simple thing to go get these oil reserves, and people think that it must be for a greedy, nefarious reason that the oil companies don’t.
    When in reality it is much more complicated than most folks realize. There are a myriad of factors that affect the price we pay and the amount of oil available. It boils down to basic economics. Supply and demand. When the supply starts to dry up the price rises. And what is left costs much more to bring to market. And the producers of that supply make more money. But, they have to invest more money to keep that supply flowing.

    As to "Peak Oil" being a ploy by oil companies to drive the price up. Anyone who has been involved in the oil industry in the last couple of decades knows that is preposterous.

    When I was in Saudi Arabia in the 90’s there were less than 50 drilling rigs operating in the entire country. The rig count today is nearly 150 and their production has actually decreased.

    Here in Texas the production of oil has steadily declined in the last couple of decades from over a million barrels a day to less than 350,000 BPD at present. Despite the fact that the rig count is at an all time high.
    As for natural gas, we are drilling 3 wells to get the same amount of production that we got a few years ago from one well.

    The rig count worldwide is at an all time high. We are drilling wells as fast as we can in every part of the world and only barley maintaining production levels in some fields while losing production in many others.
    So the decline of the worlds oil supply is not a conspiracy, it is not a theory, it is a fact. The evidence is there for anyone to see.
    It can no longer be ignored, or dismissed.
  16. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Side light for those that remember. In 73, I was in Wyoming on a construction project. Wyoming has a tremendous number of oil wells that were not economically operable prior to the oil crisis of that year, they just cost too much to operate for the amount of oil that they could lift to the surface. While I was there, a number of them were reopened and run, some produced only a 55 gallon drum a day, and not first quality crude, either. These well produced "at the margin" that is, they were the last opened when supply got tight, and the first shut when production increased. Had those wells not been available, the price of fuel would have been way higher. The lower quality oil was blended with the higher (in a manner of speaking) which was able to control, to a very limited extent, the price of fuel at the pump. There may yet be recoverable oil in these stripper wells, but the cost of recovery will be as high, or higher than it was. For almost sure, they will be stripped again, at lower rates than back in 73-74, and much higher cost. All that will do is delay the inevitable development of even higher cost to produce fields. But, folks, the price is going up.
  17. BigO01

    BigO01 Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Minuteman just a few questions .

    If the whole thing isn't a giant conspiracy could you please explain why this invention

    [SIZE=+1]System for Generating Hydrogen and Oxygen[/SIZE]
    March 21, 1995 ~ US Cl. 204/262 [SIZE=+1]Yoshiro Nakamats[/SIZE]

    Hasn't been put to use in cars , trucks , planes and water craft ?

    As you can see this was 12 years ago when this was patented yet it is funny I haven't seen a single car advertised that burns water of is a water gasoline hybrid .

    I freely admit I didn't read the entire thing and wouldn't understand it if I did but I saw this in my local newspaper in the 90's and have been wondering why I hadn't read anything about it's use since .

    One other thing I find very interesting is the claim that it is just simple supply and demand that has caused the high prices yet that simply doesn't make any sense .

    You see I use to be a big reader of Peterson's Hunting , back in the early 70's late 80's I was reading an article about the rising cost of an African Safari . Take a Wild guess what they claimed was the number one reason the costs were skyrocketing for a Safari ? Gasoline prices ! They had record prices of over $5 a Liter . Now I sure don't see the Nations of Africa even today having a demand on oil so great that their prices could be over 5 times of what Americans pay . Since that time America has seen a quadrupling + of our prices at times "One gallon back then was still under a dollar you know" and they have settled more or less at around 3 times those prices .

    Do you think the rest of the world has seen their prices triple in the last few years or could it be we are simply being "brought in line" with what the rest of the world is paying ?

    What cost cutting measures are being taken in the drilling of oil ?

    Are any of the rigs once they strike a rich deposit being run with solar/electrical Power to conserve the use of oil based fuels ? It is the desert after all .

    Perhaps what you are saying is true , then again perhaps you have simply been fed a line to protect the status quo and as far as you know it is true .

    You say you're just management in the industry . While I know not a single person in the oil business I do and have known several in Management . It wouldn't be the first time the managers thought one thing yet another was true even to the point of losing their jobs which often totally blindsides them when they least expect it .
  18. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

  19. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Bear in mind that technology (here used in the broader sense than computers) will solve many of the problems associated with alternative energy, eventually. But there will be costs that cannot be countered with transistors. Economy of scale in production will help tremendously with solar for one (that, we are seeing already) and means of storage of electricity which are also improving. But for electricity, you still need to generate it and for now the best possible return, the EIER of alternatives is still way below direct use of fossil fuels. Pending some experimentation with hydrogen generation (liberation from water) or concentration (via some form of catalytic reaction) general use of hydrogen won't ever be an economic form of fuel. Yes, it can be used, and is now, but it costs far more to operate these days simply because there is insufficient infrastructure to support the experiments. (Not to mention the .gov subsidies. Which, I add, are damn useful and well worth the tax money involved. Without it, the gains would come much slower.)

    Being a bit of a curious nutcase, I've been watching the developments in the Sterling engine area. They are a very viable alternative to the internal combustion engine for stationary applications. But for now, they are heavy, difficult (as MM says) to start and stop in short times, it's not like turning a key. There are some small production units in the field operating gensets, but for now only stationary, none in vehicles. And, they still need some sort of heat source. They are not at all fussy about where the BTUs come from, and I don't offhand know what the most common source is for these machines, but I'd bet on propane. Eventually, I am pretty sure that they will get more of their input heat from solar than the current test beds provide. Until the cost of fossil fuels gets much higher, the Sterling will depend on fossil fuels just as internal combustion engines do now.

    The burning water idea is still alive and well. BUT. That scheme is a bit of a misnomer, water is not "burned" per se. The process involved separating hydrogen and oxygen on board (I don't remember how, but I think it was a catalytic method) then recombined (the actual burning process) in an internal combustion engine. Very heavy, power density (KW per mass to produce) was way low, not much left for payload after carrying itself. I don't know what the energy out vs. energy in looked like, but the test bed was proof of concept. Since it hasn't featured in headlines, I'd guess it did what most proof of concept tests do, that is show where the next line of experiments should be concentrated.
  20. oldteacher

    oldteacher Monkey+++

    Local farmers have let the majority of their Hispanic workers who gathered the produce go. They are growing corn for ethanol instead. That means fewer and more expensive veggies and a very expensive hamburger. Did you ever try to eat a steak from a grass fed cow? Get a chainsaw.

    We are experiencing a severe drought, worse than the l954 drought that put our small farmers in this region out of business. We have had deep wells of 500 feet go dry in the county. We may not be able to keep watering the garden.

    Russia is being encircled by NATO forces. With their history, they won't let it happen again.

    My grandchildren live in a priority target area.
    I pray a lot. You folks may want to do the same.
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