Is the U.S. really a free county?

Discussion in 'Freedom and Liberty' started by Dogfood, Jan 13, 2012.

  1. Dogfood

    Dogfood Monkey+++

    U.S. prison population dwarfs that of other nations

    By Adam Liptak
    Published: Wednesday, April 23, 2008

    The United States has less than 5 percent of the world's population. But it has almost a quarter of the world's prisoners.

    Indeed, the United States leads the world in producing prisoners, a reflection of a relatively recent and now entirely distinctive American approach to crime and punishment. Americans are locked up for crimes — from writing bad checks to using drugs — that would rarely produce prison sentences in other countries. And in particular they are kept incarcerated far longer than prisoners in other nations.

    Criminologists and legal scholars in other industrialized nations say they are mystified and appalled by the number and length of American prison sentences.

    The United States has, for instance, 2.3 million criminals behind bars, more than any other nation, according to data maintained by the International Center for Prison Studies at King's College London.

    China, which is four times more populous than the United States, is a distant second, with 1.6 million people in prison. (That number excludes hundreds of thousands of people held in administrative detention, most of them in China's extrajudicial system of re-education through labor, which often singles out political activists who have not committed crimes.)

    San Marino, with a population of about 30,000, is at the end of the long list of 218 countries compiled by the center. It has a single prisoner.

    The United States comes in first, too, on a more meaningful list from the prison studies center, the one ranked in order of the incarceration rates. It has 751 people in prison or jail for every 100,000 in population. (If you count only adults, one in 100 Americans is locked up.)

    The only other major industrialized nation that even comes close is Russia, with 627 prisoners for every 100,000 people. The others have much lower rates. England's rate is 151; Germany's is 88; and Japan's is 63.

    The median among all nations is about 125, roughly a sixth of the American rate.

    There is little question that the high incarceration rate here has helped drive down crime, though there is debate about how much.

    Criminologists and legal experts here and abroad point to a tangle of factors to explain America's extraordinary incarceration rate: higher levels of violent crime, harsher sentencing laws, a legacy of racial turmoil, a special fervor in combating illegal drugs, the American temperament, and the lack of a social safety net. Even democracy plays a role, as judges — many of whom are elected, another American anomaly — yield to populist demands for tough justice.

    Whatever the reason, the gap between American justice and that of the rest of the world is enormous and growing.

    It used to be that Europeans came to the United States to study its prison systems. They came away impressed.

    "In no country is criminal justice administered with more mildness than in the United States," Alexis de Tocqueville, who toured American penitentiaries in 1831, wrote in "Democracy in America."

    No more.

    "Far from serving as a model for the world, contemporary America is viewed with horror," James Whitman, a specialist in comparative law at Yale, wrote last year in Social Research. "Certainly there are no European governments sending delegations to learn from us about how to manage prisons."

    Prison sentences here have become "vastly harsher than in any other country to which the United States would ordinarily be compared," Michael Tonry, a leading authority on crime policy, wrote in "The Handbook of Crime and Punishment."

    Indeed, said Vivien Stern, a research fellow at the prison studies center in London, the American incarceration rate has made the United States "a rogue state, a country that has made a decision not to follow what is a normal Western approach."

    The spike in American incarceration rates is quite recent. From 1925 to 1975, the rate remained stable, around 110 people in prison per 100,000 people. It shot up with the movement to get tough on crime in the late 1970s. (These numbers exclude people held in jails, as comprehensive information on prisoners held in state and local jails was not collected until relatively recently.)

    The nation's relatively high violent crime rate, partly driven by the much easier availability of guns here, helps explain the number of people in American prisons.

    "The assault rate in New York and London is not that much different," said Marc Mauer, the executive director of the Sentencing Project, a research and advocacy group. "But if you look at the murder rate, particularly with firearms, it's much higher."

    Despite the recent decline in the murder rate in the United States, it is still about four times that of many nations in Western Europe.

    But that is only a partial explanation. The United States, in fact, has relatively low rates of nonviolent crime. It has lower burglary and robbery rates than Australia, Canada and England.

    People who commit nonviolent crimes in the rest of the world are less likely to receive prison time and certainly less likely to receive long sentences. The United States is, for instance, the only advanced country that incarcerates people for minor property crimes like passing bad checks, Whitman wrote.

    Efforts to combat illegal drugs play a major role in explaining long prison sentences in the United States as well. In 1980, there were about 40,000 people in American jails and prisons for drug crimes. These days, there are almost 500,000.

    Those figures have drawn contempt from European critics. "The U.S. pursues the war on drugs with an ignorant fanaticism," said Stern of King's College.

    Many American prosecutors, on the other hand, say that locking up people involved in the drug trade is imperative, as it helps thwart demand for illegal drugs and drives down other kinds of crime. Attorney General Michael Mukasey, for instance, has fought hard to prevent the early release of people in federal prison on crack cocaine offenses, saying that many of them "are among the most serious and violent offenders."

    Still, it is the length of sentences that truly distinguishes American prison policy. Indeed, the mere number of sentences imposed here would not place the United States at the top of the incarceration lists. If lists were compiled based on annual admissions to prison per capita, several European countries would outpace the United States. But American prison stays are much longer, so the total incarceration rate is higher.

    Burglars in the United States serve an average of 16 months in prison, according to Mauer, compared with 5 months in Canada and 7 months in England.

    Many specialists dismissed race as an important distinguishing factor in the American prison rate. It is true that blacks are much more likely to be imprisoned than other groups in the United States, but that is not a particularly distinctive phenomenon. Minorities in Canada, Britain and Australia are also disproportionately represented in those nation's prisons, and the ratios are similar to or larger than those in the United States.

    Some scholars have found that English-speaking nations have higher prison rates.

    "Although it is not at all clear what it is about Anglo-Saxon culture that makes predominantly English-speaking countries especially punitive, they are," Tonry wrote last year in "Crime, Punishment and Politics in Comparative Perspective."

    "It could be related to economies that are more capitalistic and political cultures that are less social democratic than those of most European countries," Tonry wrote. "Or it could have something to do with the Protestant religions with strong Calvinist overtones that were long influential."

    The American character — self-reliant, independent, judgmental — also plays a role.

    "America is a comparatively tough place, which puts a strong emphasis on individual responsibility," Whitman of Yale wrote. "That attitude has shown up in the American criminal justice of the last 30 years."

    French-speaking countries, by contrast, have "comparatively mild penal policies," Tonry wrote.

    Of course, sentencing policies within the United States are not monolithic, and national comparisons can be misleading.

    "Minnesota looks more like Sweden than like Texas," said Mauer of the Sentencing Project. (Sweden imprisons about 80 people per 100,000 of population; Minnesota, about 300; and Texas, almost 1,000. Maine has the lowest incarceration rate in the United States, at 273; and Louisiana the highest, at 1,138.)

    Whatever the reasons, there is little dispute that America's exceptional incarceration rate has had an impact on crime.

    "As one might expect, a good case can be made that fewer Americans are now being victimized" thanks to the tougher crime policies, Paul Cassell, an authority on sentencing and a former federal judge, wrote in The Stanford Law Review.

    From 1981 to 1996, according to Justice Department statistics, the risk of punishment rose in the United States and fell in England. The crime rates predictably moved in the opposite directions, falling in the United States and rising in England.

    "These figures," Cassell wrote, "should give one pause before too quickly concluding that European sentences are appropriate."

    Other commentators were more definitive. "The simple truth is that imprisonment works," wrote Kent Scheidegger and Michael Rushford of the Criminal Justice Legal Foundation in The Stanford Law and Policy Review. "Locking up criminals for longer periods reduces the level of crime. The benefits of doing so far offset the costs."

    There is a counterexample, however, to the north. "Rises and falls in Canada's crime rate have closely paralleled America's for 40 years," Tonry wrote last year. "But its imprisonment rate has remained stable."

    Several specialists here and abroad pointed to a surprising explanation for the high incarceration rate in the United States: democracy.

    Most state court judges and prosecutors in the United States are elected and are therefore sensitive to a public that is, according to opinion polls, generally in favor of tough crime policies. In the rest of the world, criminal justice professionals tend to be civil servants who are insulated from popular demands for tough sentencing.

    Whitman, who has studied Tocqueville's work on American penitentiaries, was asked what accounted for America's booming prison population.

    "Unfortunately, a lot of the answer is democracy — just what Tocqueville was talking about," he said. "We have a highly politicized criminal justice system."

    Liberty is you can do anything as long as it will not deprive others of their rights. At least that is the way I see it.
  2. ColtCarbine

    ColtCarbine Monkey+++ Founding Member

    I would imagine that the imprisonment rate will only get higher with the supposed War on Terrorism, no different than the supposed War on Drugs since the 80's. Both accounts have cost the taxpayer dearly with increased spending and have created more governmental employees.
  3. Seawolf1090

    Seawolf1090 Retired Curmudgeonly IT Monkey Founding Member

    As the misadministration makes whole new 'classes' of citizens into criminals, the Big Business of Prison Management will get all the more lucrative. And make no mistake, prisons are BIG business! :rolleyes:
    Guit_fishN likes this.
  4. Dogfood

    Dogfood Monkey+++

    Yes it is I make my living off of this system but it is very messed up. I'm a member of LEAP Law Enforcement Against Prohibition and support it.
  5. ColtCarbine

    ColtCarbine Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Good for you, I had no idea it existed. Glad to see some people in this world see where what the real problem lies.

    Why Legalize Drugs?

    We believe that drug prohibition is the true cause of much of the social and personal damage that has historically been attributed to drug use. It is prohibition that makes these drugs so valuable – while giving criminals a monopoly over their supply. Driven by the huge profits from this monopoly, criminal gangs bribe and kill each other, law enforcers, and children. Their trade is unregulated and they are, therefore, beyond our control.

    History has shown that drug prohibition reduces neither use nor abuse. After a rapist is arrested, there are fewer rapes. After a drug dealer is arrested, however, neither the supply nor the demand for drugs is seriously changed. The arrest merely creates a job opening for an endless stream of drug entrepreneurs who will take huge risks for the sake of the enormous profits created by prohibition. Prohibition costs taxpayers tens of billions of dollars every year, yet 40 years and some 40 million arrests later, drugs are cheaper, more potent and far more widely used than at the beginning of this futile crusade.

    We believe that by eliminating prohibition of all drugs for adults and establishing appropriate regulation and standards for distribution and use, law enforcement could focus more on crimes of violence, such as rape, aggravated assault, child abuse and murder, making our communities much safer. We believe that sending parents to prison for non-violent personal drug use destroys families. We believe that in a regulated and controlled environment, drugs will be safer for adult use and less accessible to our children. And we believe that by placing drug abuse in the hands of medical professionals instead of the criminal justice system, we will reduce rates of addiction and overdose deaths.
  6. ColtCarbine

    ColtCarbine Monkey+++ Founding Member

    1. (1990, 2000, 2008, 2009 & 2010 - prisons & jails - federal - prisoners by most serious offense) During the eleven years of 2000-2010, the number of federal prisoners grew by almost +45%; since 1990, they have more than tripled.
      At almost +104%, the fastest growing category of federal inmates belonged to "public order," which represents those incarcerated for immigration and weapons violations. The number of federal "drug" inmates in 2010 expanded by almost one third over those in 2000, but remained at the same approximate 50% of total federal inmates as in 1990.
      <table id="facts" align="center"> <tbody><tr> <th colspan="11">Number of sentenced prisoners in federal prison by most serious offense</th> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">Offense</td> <td align="center">1990</td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="center">2000</td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="center">2008</td> <td align="center">2009</td> <td align="center">2010</td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="center">Share 2010</td> <td align="center">% Chg 2000-2010</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="center">
      </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="center">
      </td> </tr> <tr> <td>TOTAL</td> <td align="right"> 56,989</td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="right"> 131,739</td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="right"> 182,333</td> <td align="right"> 187,886</td> <td align="right"> 190,641</td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="right">100.0%</td> <td align="right">+44.7%</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">Violent </td> <td align="right">9,557</td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="right">13,740</td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="right">15,483</td> <td align="right">15,010</td> <td align="right">14,830</td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="right">7.8%</td> <td align="right">+7.9%</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">Property </td> <td align="right">7,935</td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="right">10,135</td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="right">11,080</td> <td align="right">11,088</td> <td align="right">11,264</td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="right">5.9%</td> <td align="right">+11.1%</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">Drug </td> <td align="right">30,470</td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="right">74,276</td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="right">95,079</td> <td align="right">96,735</td> <td align="right">97,472</td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="right">51.1%</td> <td align="right">+31.2%</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">Public-order </td> <td align="right">8,585</td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="right">32,325</td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="right">59,298</td> <td align="right">63,714</td> <td align="right">65,873</td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="right">34.6%</td> <td align="right">+103.8%</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">Other/unspecified </td> <td align="right">442</td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="right">1,263</td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="right">1,394</td> <td align="right">1,339</td> <td align="right">1,203</td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="right">0.6%</td> <td align="right">-4.8%</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
      • Violent = homicide, robbery, murder, and manslaughter (negligent and non-negligent).
      • Property = burglary, fraud, etc.
      • Public Order = immigration, weapons, etc.
      Guerino, Paul; Harrison, Paige M.; and Sabol, William J., "Prisoners in 2010," Bureau of Justice Statistics, (Washington, DC: US Department of Justice, December 2011), NCJ 236096, p. 30.
      West, Heather C.; Sabol, William J.; and Greenman, Sarah J., "Prisoners in 2009," Bureau of Justice Statistics, (Washington, DC: US Department of Justice, December 2010), NCJ 231675, Appendix Table 18, p. 33.
      Beck, Allen J. and Harrison, Paige M., "Prisoners in 2000," Bureau of Justice Statistics, (Washington, DC: US Department of Justice, December 2011), NCJ 188207, Table 19, p. 12.
    2. (2006 - prisons & jails - length of sentence by offense) The table below shows the average sentence (mean and median) imposed on Federal prisoners for various offenses in 2006. "Among offenders convicted of a felony and sentenced to prison, the mean sentence was 49 months and the median was 24 months."
      <table id="facts" align="center"> <tbody><tr> <th colspan="9">Length of sentence received by convicted offenders</th> </tr> <tr> <th colspan="9">by most serious conviction offense and sentence type, 2006</th> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">Most serious conviction</td> <td align="center">Prison Mean</td> <td align="center">Prison Median</td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="center">Jail Mean</td> <td align="center">Jail Median</td> <td align="center">
      </td> <td align="center">Probation Mean</td> <td align="center">Probation Median</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">
      </td> <td align="right">
      </td> <td align="right">
      </td> <td align="right">
      </td> <td align="right">
      </td> <td align="right">
      </td> <td align="right">
      </td> <td align="right">
      </td> <td align="right">
      </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="Center">All Offenses</td> <td align="Center">49 mo</td> <td align="Center">24 mo</td> <td align="Center">
      </td> <td align="Center">6 mo</td> <td align="Center">4 mo</td> <td align="Center">
      </td> <td align="Center">31 mo</td> <td align="Center">24 mo</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="left">Felonies</td> <td align="Center">49 mo</td> <td align="Center">24 mo</td> <td align="Center">
      </td> <td align="Center">6 mo</td> <td align="Center">5 mo</td> <td align="Center">
      </td> <td align="Center">33 mo</td> <td align="Center">24 mo</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">Violent Offenses</td> <td align="Center">94</td> <td align="Center">48</td> <td align="Center">
      </td> <td align="Center">9</td> <td align="Center">6</td> <td align="Center">
      </td> <td align="Center">38</td> <td align="Center">24</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">Property Offenses</td> <td align="Center">38</td> <td align="Center">24</td> <td align="Center">
      </td> <td align="Center">7</td> <td align="Center">6</td> <td align="Center">
      </td> <td align="Center">32</td> <td align="Center">24</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">Drug Offenses</td> <td align="Center">34</td> <td align="Center">24</td> <td align="Center">
      </td> <td align="Center">5</td> <td align="Center">3</td> <td align="Center">
      </td> <td align="Center">32</td> <td align="Center">36</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right">Public-order Offenses</td> <td align="Center">33</td> <td align="Center">24</td> <td align="Center">
      </td> <td align="Center">6</td> <td align="Center">5</td> <td align="Center">
      </td> <td align="Center">34</td> <td align="Center">24</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="left">Misdemeanors</td> <td align="Center">~mo</td> <td align="Center">~mo</td> <td align="Center">
      </td> <td align="Center">5 mo</td> <td align="Center">4 mo</td> <td align="Center">
      </td> <td align="Center">19 mo</td> <td align="Center">12 mo</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
      ~ = Not applicable
      Cohen, Thomas H. and Kyckelhahn, Tracey, "Felony Defendants in Large Urban Counties, 2006," Bureau of Justice Statistics (Washington, DC: US Department of Justice, May 2010) NCJ 228944, Table 13, p. 13.
    3. (2000 - prisons & jails - federal prison sentence length by offense) The table below shows the average sentence (mean and median) imposed on Federal prisoners for various offenses in 2000. "Prison sentences imposed increased slightly from 55.1 months during 1988 to 56.8 months during 2000. For drug offenses, prison sentences increased from 71.3 months to 75.6 months; for weapon offenses, sentences imposed increased from 52.3 months to 92.2 months."
      <table id="facts" align="center"> <tbody><tr> <th colspan="3">Average Federal Prison Sentence, 2000</th> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">Offense</td> <td align="center">Mean</td> <td align="center">Median</td> </tr> <tr> <td>
      </td> <td align="right">
      </td> <td align="right">
      </td> </tr> <tr> <td>All Offenses</td> <td align="right">56.8 months</td> <td align="right">33.0 months</td> </tr> <tr> <td>All Felonies</td> <td align="right">58.0 months</td> <td align="right">36.0 months</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Violent Felonies</td> <td align="right">86.6 months</td> <td align="right">63.0 months</td> </tr> <tr> <td>
      </td> <td align="right">
      </td> <td align="right">
      </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Drug Felonies All</td> <td align="right">75.6 months</td> <td align="right">55.0 months</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Drug Trafficking</td> <td align="right">75.2 months</td> <td align="right">51.0 months</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Drug Possession</td> <td align="right">81.1 months</td> <td align="right">60.0 months</td> </tr> <tr> <td>
      </td> <td align="right">
      </td> <td align="right">
      </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Property Felony - Fraud</td> <td align="right">22.5 months</td> <td align="right">14.0 months</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Property Felony - Other</td> <td align="right">33.4 months</td> <td align="right">18.0 months</td> </tr> <tr> <td>
      </td> <td align="right">
      </td> <td align="right">
      </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Public Order Felony - Regulatory</td> <td align="right">28.0 months</td> <td align="right">15.0 months</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Public Order Felony - Other</td> <td align="right">46.5 months</td> <td align="right">30.0 months</td> </tr> <tr> <td>
      </td> <td align="right">
      </td> <td align="right">
      </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Misdemeanors</td> <td align="right">10.3 months</td> <td align="right">6.0 months</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
      US Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Federal Criminal Case Processing, 2000, With Trends 1982-2000 (Washington, DC: US Department of Justice, November 2001), p. 12, Table 6.
  7. STANGF150

    STANGF150 Knowledge Seeker

    In the media article it compares Russia & China to America. Thats an unfair comparison. Of course we have more in jail for violent crimes than they do. Cuz in Russia & China they don't imprison murderers. They KILL THEM!!!
    larryinalabama likes this.
  8. Alpha Dog

    Alpha Dog survival of the breed

    We have a week justice system compared to other countries and because of that we have more repeat offenders. That raises the stats as well so the goverment can sink more money into the system. As for the US being free we the honest, hard working class people have not been free for along time. Becuase of this revolving door justice system we can't leave our homes for fear of everything we own being stolen, or us and our families being victims of violent crimes while out on a family trip to the mall. Being shot, hit by a 12 time convicted DUI, or our wives and daughters being raped by a reformed sex preditor. Well you see where Im going.
    Dogfood, Cephus and larryinalabama like this.
  9. larryinalabama

    larryinalabama Monkey++

    as far as i seeit the system goes after easy prey. A father has no money to pay child support geos to prison, fish with out a license

    The us and its so called independent states have prisons full of people that are no thret to anybody, dont worry the system is bankrupt and wont contuniue. I am kinda of worried the bad fellers will be set free
  10. Tikka

    Tikka Monkey+++

    One of the problems with our system is mandatory sentences. Prisons release violent criminals and real criminals to house dope dealers.
  11. goinpostal

    goinpostal Monkey+++

    If we decriminalized drugs,and in clear cases of murder,rape,armed robbery,and child molestation we started executing offenders,our prisons would be almost empty.
    The rest should be put to work to pay for their keep,and given some education/skills so they can be a benefit to society apon their re-entry.
    No more coddling of prisoners.If it's not of educational value,they shouldnt have access to it,PERIOD!!
    On the other hand anyone who commits rape on another prisoner should also be executed as well.
    Being sent somewhere that you are likely to be raped as part of daily life,is what I consider"cruel,and unusual punishment",and shouldnt be tolerated.
    Someone who commits such a vile act apon another prisoner is certainly not fit to ever re-enter society with the rest of us,so they should contract lead poisoning.
    Anyone who has commited a crime vile enough to deserve to be raped as punishment shouldnt be allowed to live either.
  12. Alpha Dog

    Alpha Dog survival of the breed

    I know alot of guy's might not agree but I am a firm believer in the death penalty. If you have murders, rapist, child molesters( a child molester is some one who can not be cured. It is hard wired in their system), Put these people down stop giving 30 apeals. For each inmate it take $35,000.00 dollars in tax payers money to up keep them per year. It would save the tax payer and open up needed cells. Dope dealers give them time busting rock hard labor thats a rehab that will work stop locking them up feeding them, giving them tv, weight room and education. If they want to educate people help educate the working mans children take a little load off him and make a better future for productive working people. Look around the world we are the only country that locks a man up he comes out in better physical condition and with a college degree. Which will help him better run his criminal business.
    flyboy207, Dogfood and bountyhunter like this.
  13. STANGF150

    STANGF150 Knowledge Seeker

    Well Alpha, I don't agree with the CURRENT definition of the "Death Penalty". You know, where they more likely to die of Old Age on Death Row than be executed. Assuming they don't end up on parole anyways. I believe in Find them guilty, take them out back, & hang them. While families bring a picnic lunch to watch so the youngins can see where their future might lead to if they wanna take the wrong road in life.

    As for rapists, I believe in castration, cauterization so they don't bleed to death, then hanging. An heavy punishment for anyone making False accusations!!

    As for child molesters, well lets just say it'd be messy & they'd beg to die before they are given a modern version of Drawn & Quartered.
    Dogfood, Cephus and Alpha Dog like this.
  14. Kajungizmo

    Kajungizmo Monkey++

    Why not go to prison? Free room and board, free education. They even get free cable TV and Internet. IMO, our legal system is too soft on criminals.
    I think I lean more towards Arizona's standards for criminals. Make 'em not wanna come back and maybe they'll straighten up a bit.
    Seawolf1090, STANGF150 and Alpha Dog like this.
  15. Espada

    Espada Monkey+

    Very unfair comparison. China and Russia are monocultural; their populations have more or less the same cultural mores and IQ averages.

    Given 70% of the US prison population is negro, subtract that from the overall US prison population, and the result is 225 prisoners per 100,000 general population.
  16. Alpha Dog

    Alpha Dog survival of the breed

    Thats because 70% more homey's are comitting the crimes and the want to blame it on the white man keeping them down. I have arrested alot of black men and wemon and never have I found a white man standing standing behind them with a gun forcing them to comitt the crime.
    bountyhunter, STANGF150 and Cephus like this.
  17. larryinalabama

    larryinalabama Monkey++

    I toured our county jail when I served on the grand jury and I can assure you that you dont want to be in there
  18. bountyhunter

    bountyhunter Monkey+

    as for the death penalty,if anyone is found guilty of a capital offense by DNA,i say they should hang within 24 hrs,every county should have a gallows,and have people with enough backbone to trip the door and take all the slack out of the rope!!
    Dogfood and Alpha Dog like this.
  19. tenderfoot

    tenderfoot Monkey+

    We're all free. That is until anyone with the authority to state otherwise decides you aren't. Best to remain low profile until a battle you feel is necessary to defend presents itself, imho.

  20. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    One is as Free, as he allows his Mind, to think he is. A person can decide to do whatever he chooses, Period. He then MUST accept the Consequences of his Actions. That is Freedom. Not letting others decide what you Can, and can-NOT, do. In truth, only the Individual can decide, where those limits are, and if the consequences of his actions, are worth the PRICE to be Paid, for such actions.
    ..... YMMV....
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