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July 1st, 2009

Discussion in 'Freedom and Liberty' started by medicineman, Oct 30, 2008.

  1. medicineman

    medicineman Monkey+++

    I started to post this in the FIREARMS section, just to keep the discussion between pro 2nd folks, but decided it needed to be here.
    This is the "What If" that is haunting my thoughts and turning my dreams into nightmares.

    Nov 5th, 2008.....
    Results are in.
    President elect Barak Obama is looking forward to "Great Changes".
    January 15th, 2009.....
    Obama is sworn in as the first "African American" president.
    January 19th, 2009.....
    Obama signs into law the most comprehensive Firearms "Safety" Legislation in the History of our Nation.
    July 1st, 2009.....
    The NEW Assault weapons ban goes into effect.
    The following are outright BANED from being POSESSED by Americans....
    (insert Long list of our favorite weapons)
    Included words....
    Military "style" rifles that accept removable ammunition feeding device, have a "pistol grip", or have a non-removable ammunition feeding device that can hold more than 5 rounds.
    Also, ALL cartridge weapons over .45 caliber, Specifically the .50BMG, and possession of their ammunition and/or components.
    Handguns that have tha capability of accepting a removable ammunition feeding device of more than 6 rounds, Ammunition feeding devices of more than 6 rounds, and ANY "handgun" which is capable of firing a projectile which could defeat a Level III vest.
    Revolvers capable of holding more than 6 rounds.
    Variants of the listed firearms, and "clones" of their configurations.

    All weapons listed must be turned over IMMEDIATELY to a Government collection point.
    Possession after July 1st, 2009 constitutes a FELONY with high fines and incarceration MANDATORY.
    Here is your question......
    Your AR, AK, FAL, M1A, and other rifles (including your 10/22) are now BANNED and ILLEGAL to POSSESS.
    Your 1911 pistol is now ILLEGAL.
    AS are ALL of your magazines over 5 rounds.......
    With the strokes of a pen, you are now a FELON.

    It's done and over with.
    You have "sportsmen" who say it doesn't effect them, so they won't lift a finger.
    You have others who think it's "not that bad" or that "it will only last TIL the next election".
    Others just don't want to get involved in anything that might harm them or their finances.

    Talk about the "OPTIONS" you see for us at this point (after ban).
  2. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    Assuming I have what it takes to become a felon under those assumptions, I would not answer your question now or then, and certainly not on the web or in print. If I'm a sheep in wolf's clothing, there is no answer I can make that will have meaning since actions speak louder than standing up and making noise. This is one of those cases where yapping is sure to attract attention on July 2nd in the scenario.

    Sorry, bad question. [beer] I can't recommend answering, but I can recommend that you do the soul searching to come to our own decisions. There are certainly indications here and on other forums of what others can and will do that you can use as a basis for thinking. And some that are simply noise and bluster. Not at all easy to tell the difference between those who will and those that yap.
  3. medicineman

    medicineman Monkey+++

    "If it becomes necessary to HIDE your firearms, then it is DEFINITELY time to USE them for their intended purpose".

    Will you hide from the good fight behind the skirts of your women, or will you stand up like MEN and defend your freedom for your Grandchildren???

    While I agree that we don't need to lay out our plans, it's good I think to at least give "WARNING" that it would not be tolerated.

    They tell us all the time that "ignorance of the law is no excuse".
    But I think that's low-brow and underhanded.

    But if I have TOLD and Warned them, and they do it anyway, then the fallout they get is their own fault and I am blameless.
    For they have acted, and I have retaliated, under the guise of "informed consent".
    They have chosen to accept my reactions. <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
    <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
  4. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    +1 to what ghrit said.
    Any writ like that will be hand delivered by duly sworn LEO's, enforcing what has become "the law".
    Engaging in combat with the goobermint/LEOs will not change the law. Congress can change the law..
    Makes no matter what you tell "them" on some backwater internet forum...No man is blameless for his actions.

    Rant all you want. ..but this is a topic best reserved for the pub or the woodlot among trusted friends.
  5. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    Think I may move to Mexico to be free......[gone]
  6. medicineman

    medicineman Monkey+++

    And they don't have to even TRY to take away 1st Amendment right to freedom of speech.

    It has been given up willingly.
  7. WestPointMAG

    WestPointMAG Monkey++

    Real power is not taken it is given. The only way that anyone has any power over another is by being empowered by others. I have as of yet to have heard even one LEO say that they would enforce an outright ban such as you described. So what about the military? Where is our military? What will they do? I am betting that they will said with the LEO on this one and stay neutral. So how is Obama going to enforce his ban? That my fellow Americans is the question. To enforce this ban he will have to kick the doors in him self, form a paramilitary force from the goons and goblins of the underworld {gang bangers and tree huggers} and/or use military forces from outside the U.S.A. The real question is not what will we do but who will empower Mr. Obama?

    A tiger without teeth or claws can only roar.
  8. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

    If our forefathers were here today, I wonder if their response would be the same as this one below:

    <table align="center" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td valign="top" width="814" height="429"><table align="center" border="0" width="90%"><tbody><tr><td align="center" valign="top">[​IMG]
    The Battles of Lexington and Concord </td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> <td align="right" valign="top" width="207" height="429">
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td width="206" height="2"> </td> <td bgcolor="#472e39" width="814" height="2"> </td> <td bgcolor="#472e39" width="207" height="2"> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <hr> <table bgcolor="#800000" border="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td colspan="3" bgcolor="#000000" valign="top" width="437" height="20"> Date: April 19th, 1775 </td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="3" bgcolor="#000000" valign="top" width="437" height="20"> Location: Lexington and Concord Massachusetts </td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="3" bgcolor="#000000" valign="top" width="437" height="30"> Weather: ~55-65`F, winds calm </td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#000000" valign="top" width="81" height="30">
    </td> <td bgcolor="#000000" valign="top" width="164" height="30">[​IMG] </td> <td bgcolor="#000000" valign="top" width="192" height="30">[​IMG] </td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#000000" valign="top" width="81" height="20"> Casualties: </td> <td bgcolor="#000000" valign="top" width="164" height="20"> 95 </td> <td bgcolor="#000000" valign="top" width="192" height="20"> 273 </td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#000000" valign="top" width="81" height="38"> Leaders: </td> <td bgcolor="#000000" valign="top" width="164" height="38"> Capt. Parker/Col. Barrett </td> <td bgcolor="#000000" valign="top" width="192" height="38"> Col. Smith / Maj. Pitcairn </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <hr>
    As a response to hearing the hearsay of possible revolts from the rebels in the areas surrounding Boston, Major General Thomas Gage, the commander of all British forces in North America, who is stationed at Boston, orders a column of seven hundred men to demolish the weaponry depot at Concord ([patr] The column is under the command of Lt. Colonel Francis Smith, and his second, Major John Pitcairn. It is Pitcairn, who we well see, is in command of the front forces in Lexington.
    Back in Boston, before seeing the total advance, Paul Revere makes his famous ride, which stops at Lexington to warn the patriots of the oncoming British regulars[siren]. Captain John Parker, who is in command of the minutemen and militia at Lexington, watches as a scout, Thaddeus Bowman, gallops with his horse over the rise and reports the situation. Bowman reports that not only are the British regulars coming, but Bowman recounts that there are almost a thousand of them, and that the redcoats are over an hour away, and quickly approaching[shtf]. Parker does not believe that there will be much of a fight at all. He thought that there would be a "small brush" and then the regulars would continue onto Concord. Knowing that the regulars will soon be upon them, Parker orders him men to disperse and hide in the underbrush.
    With the arrival of the full British column, reports differ. Pitcairn writes that the minutemen were in a line formation, waiting out in the middle of the green pastures of Lexington for the regulars. Pitcairn recounts that he rode out to the middle of the field and yells "Disperse, ye rebels, disperse (Give us your guns?)!" Parker’s version, with the minutemen still in the underbrush, are found out by the regulars, and instead of a formal parley, the regulars, about thirty of them, come running out to the underbrush and yell "damn them, we will have them!"
    Either way, a single and evoked shot rang out from behind a stone wall. "The shot that was heard ‘round the world", is still unknown from which musket, or which side the shot came from. Responding, the British fire without orders. Next, they get into line formation and begin pouring volley upon volley into the minutemen. Finally, the regulars turn the firing into a full-fledged charge. Lt. Colonel Smith himself must then ride out into the field and stop the charge. The British killed eight minutemen, and wounded nine others. The war has begun:shock:.
    Colonel James Barrett, commander of the local militia of Middlesex, acknowledges false reports on a British assault on Lexington ten days earlier then it actually happened, hides twenty thousand pounds of musket balls and cartridges, fifty reams of cartridge paper, thirty-one barrels of flour, seventeen thousand pounds of fish and thirty-five thousand pounds of rice throughout the community
    (Sounds like a survivalist/Prepper to me![raspberry][finger]).

    Massachusetts is defiantly ready for war. Samuel Prescott, the famous “other rider” and Son of Liberty, rides into Concord at 2:30 AM on April 19 to warn the population of the oncoming British presence.
    By 8:00 that same morning, Smith and Pitcairn have already entered Concord. The city is to be found devoid of men, but the women and children are still there. Smith orders his Grenadiers to search houses and barns for powder. He decides not to attack when none of his men find any powder, and has a feeling that the militia could have possibly surrounded the town. Smith did not know it, but he was right. Over six thousand militia surrounded the town on the hills and ridges above[own2]. Smith stations men to secure bridges and roads. Grenadiers find a small cannon brace, and burn that.
    Seeing this on the hills above, the curses start flying, and the men get restless. Rallies start to come up, including the main one, “Will you let them burn the town down?” by Lt. Joseph Homer. The militia rally around the yell, and Barrett gives out the orders: Concord's two minuteman companies and two militia companies were mustered in front of Wright's Tavern[beer]. From nearby Lincoln, another company of minutemen who brought rumor of gunfire at Lexington, joined in as well. A horseman by the name of Reuben Brown (a Concord saddle maker) returned from Lexington with an eyewitness account of the first British volley, which had sent him galloping back to Concord. He reported to Barrett that the regulars were probably firing ball, although he was not really sure. It was a momentous report. Powder would have frightened, but ball was intended to kill.
    Barrett decided to seize the high ground and sent most of his men onto a long ridge that commanded the road leading into Concord. Hoping to give the approaching British a show of force, he sent another company down the road toward Lexington, hoping this might persuade the British to turn back to Boston. However, Colonel Smith was in no mood to be intimidated. He had his orders from General Gage, and he meant to carry them out[pop].
    [​IMG] The move would require them to cross the North Bridge, which at the time was being guarded by three companies of regulars totaling 120 men. Barrett had 400 militia behind him and thought that by advancing on the bridge, the regulars, facing such an overwhelming force, would turn and fall back to allow the Americans to proceed on into Concord. Under the current rules of engagement, the British would not fire unless the Americans fired first.
    Barrett ordered the Acton militia, under the command of Captain Isaac Davis and along with Major Buttrick, to advance his company to the bridge in a long, snaking column, two men abreast. Barrett cautioned them to be sure not to fire first. As the Americans approached the bridge, the stunned British at first did nothing. When their commanding officer, Captain Walter Laurie, realized the situation, he had his men retreat to the opposite side of the river and massed them around a narrow span. They had to hold the bridge or the four companies that had marched to Barrett's farm would be cut off.
    The Americans advanced. The British raised their muskets. The Americans marched onto the bridge. With their guns pointed down and toward the river, several British soldiers fired warning shots. The Americans kept coming. Suddenly, an instant later, a full volley was fired at the head of the American column[sawgunner]. Captain Isaac Davis was killed instantly with a bullet in his heart. Beside him, Abner Hosmer went down with a bullet to the head. Four other men were wounded. The Americans stared in disbelief. "Goddamn it," one man shouted, "they're firing ball!" Major Buttrick shouted, "Fire fellow soldiers, for God's sake fire!" With the ability to know the land, and the obvious manpower advantage, the minutemen are able to fend off the British regulars, and they inflict two hundred and seventy-three casualties.
    The British then retire to Boston to lick their wounds. A new-found respect is now found for the minutemen, and the militia, who will soon turn into the Continental Army[flag].
  9. RouteClearance

    RouteClearance Monkey+++ Site Supporter

    TSHTF because of the world economic situation will happen first, by then any laws passed by McBama will pretty well be moot. Hopefuly the next revolution will happen because the sheeple and their children are going hungry.
  10. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    The first, as the second, lives here, and I for one am not happy with your implication that we have given up the right to speak out. We freely express our opinions and debate (including rants at dot gov and other silly organizations.) We swap information on lifestyles that might be needed after significant events. We offer suggestions when someone has a problem.

    What we don't do is advertise our individually intended reaction to dot gov "rules." There are a number of reasons for that, as you might figure. For one thing, dot gov is prone to not doing it quite as envisioned, thus your reaction could well be wrong. Military think tanks have the time and inclination to prepare formal war plans that cover multiple branchings of events in great detail. Nobody here (that I know about) has that ability, maximum flexibility is the individual planning rule.

    The problem is with laying out my individual assets in sufficient detail to satisfy your initial question, not to mention the deliberate intent to become a felon. If you go to the effort, chances are that my assets are all here, but I won't make it easy for dot gov to list them in one place then come knocking at or bashing in my door and force me to turn them over.

    The first allows you to publish the list. The second allows you to defend it. Neither requires it. Yet, anyway, which is at the core of your question. I'm still not going to admit (or even suggest) that I might commit a felony that isn't even a defined felony. Yet.

    "If it becomes necessary to HIDE your firearms, then it is DEFINITELY time to USE them for their intended purpose".

    "Will you hide from the good fight behind the skirts of your women, or will you stand up like MEN and defend your freedom for your Grandchildren??? "

    Good quotes. Who said them?

    While I agree that we don't need to lay out our plans, it's good I think to at least give "WARNING" that it would not be tolerated.
    From what podium will you send the warning? Where does the strength of numbers come from that gives "you" the power to issue that warning and defend you when it comes time to carry out the threat? There is no one here with standing sufficient and followers enough to pull off a Castro style revolution.

    They tell us all the time that "ignorance of the law is no excuse".
    But I think that's low-brow and underhanded.

    You will find considerable agreement here. That is one of the irritating things about these National Security Letters. We can't know we've broken the law until the door comes in. There is NO excuse for ignorance if the information is available.

    But if I have TOLD and Warned them, and they do it anyway, then the fallout they get is their own fault and I am blameless.
    Simplistic view, however accurate in the end it may be. "Unintended Consequences" went off without warning, thus was far more effective, even tho' fictional.

    For they have acted, and I have retaliated, under the guise of "informed consent".
    They have chosen to accept my reactions.
    Or not. Without question, dot gov is aware that there are people out and about that will resist confiscatory "laws," some as tokens, and some that will go deep. The problem they will have is with numbers and quality. That is the part that does not want to be advertised here, either as individuals or an organized group. I think it might have been Sun Tsu that advocated keeping the opposition in the dark. Not a bad plan, says me.


    Clyde's history lesson should not be lost on us. What we don't have is any sort of organization like the militia that was able to exist in the mid to late 1700s. The militias that set up in the 70s were an interesting case that was squelched. Regrettable. So the main difference between then and now is that the organization will have to be developed from scratch during whatever event triggers grumpyness among the citizens. One of the more interesting questions is what dot gov might do that will set off reactions. Whether it is a bit by bit nibbling away of rights or a massive "clamping down" on constitutional rights that will provide a trigger remains open. Education of the sheep is the only means we have of moving the trigger point.

  11. RouteClearance

    RouteClearance Monkey+++ Site Supporter

    +1, It will be after everything has gone to hell in a handbasket that the chaffe will be seperated from the wheat. We can all "Talk The Talk" on anything that we belive in, but when the time comes to "Walk The Walk", the number of true belivers will be a very small percentage.

    The sad fact about the average American is that most belive that they are so sophisticated, (overweight, lazy, lackidaisical, and just plain ignorant) that good 'ol fashioned hard work is beneath them. It takes hard work to really accomplish one's deepest held beliefs and goals in life. That is why so many fail today.

    It is said that if you truly belive in freedom and liberty, that you will sacrifice everything you have. How many Americans will do this today?
  12. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    I read alot of replies and comments all over the spectrum, If I got a pre'64 nickel for every comment that thumped( allcaps) about killing TPTB I'd have a nice match m1a...
    That said..Clydes lesson is well taken. As is West point mags.( the civilian Soldier commited an "illegal" act by launching that first musketball down range, and that act of courage resulted in the birth of a powerful nationand changed history..)

    I find the opening post to be yet another version of " I want to test the mettle of who I'm,"serving" with..."We've seen it before and it never ceases to get my hackles up( I am not petitioning to join anybody's fire team and resent the implication by merely asking the question it places the asker above "examination"( in aself assigned position to "judge" the worthiness of us) . What exactly Mr."medicineman" do you boastfully plan to do about such a situation????

    ...there are clearly only two answers to july2nd: 1) I getup, feed the cat,makecoffee and gather my junk andhead down to the collection point, or 2) not; (the Testosterone correct answer). in the former I am publicly labled "coward" by somebody behind a keyboard. The latter adds to the pointless chest thumping. If I choose to become a felon on that day it will come down to a personal decision; squaring up my eastern european sights and squeezing the trigger blindly lashing out at the minions of oppression;for as long as my blood pressure can be maintained.Simple

    Realistically They(and their computer models) know this: and more than likely will not out right outlaw but tax(the living hell out of) centerfire/military ammunition out of existence (5000%?) .
  13. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    I'm taking medicineman's post as an honest question based on his statement of sleep loss, and trying to point out the reasoning why it's a bad question to ask of folks in a public arena. I don't take it for a boast at all. But I DO take it as unwise.

    And, should I really have some pretax ammo, I'll just go ahead and pay the tax on new supplies and save the pretax stuff for necessary times. Or not. taser1

    medicineman, I gotta say your question is lousy, but sure did stir up some thinking. Thanx for that.
  14. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Fair enough, I see that point[footinmouth]; inflammatory, colored language rarely leads to positive discourse. This whole topic is "wink- wink-nudge-nudge"....( I'm sorry I got sucked into it.[cow])[cof]...
  15. WestPointMAG

    WestPointMAG Monkey++

    I think this thread has about played its’ self out so let me say this and I will bow out.
    If the worst comes to pass and you are caught flat footed do not resist. Do what you are told when you are told to do it, give them everything that they are there to take, let them take you where they will and say thank you when you get there. Do your best to stay alive have faith in your fellow Americans for we will do the best that we can for you as soon as we can. Wile you are waiting learn all you can that could be of aid to us. I can not promises that we will get to you in time all I can promises is that we will try. Your job is #1 stay alive and #2 learn.

  16. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    I have to say I just had "a wakeup and smell the coffee "moment not an hour ago...;I've been reading Rawles'"patriots"( first time through) and got to aroundpage260 where the( "duly elected/selfappointed " provisional /u.n. gov drops into read their statement about certain "little things" being restricted for the good of the "re-bulding" ( little things like the press and laundry list of fire arms and ammunition ) And I'm going " ho ho-hoo noo ... I don'think so; you slimy self appointed yahoos"
    well I didn't say "yahoo" but those who know the story are familiar with the chapter. And A thought breaks through my schedule 80 skull...Dawns on me Obama! ...is for banning most of the same list! Holy crap this is alot closer to nonfiction than I previously considererd. I'm just sayin' if it actually happened I wouldn't be pleased. ( and I ordered more "stan-snacks" 7.62x39 while its still out there...).
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