Discussion in 'Faith and Religion' started by chelloveck, Feb 9, 2014.
Via:Musical Jesus: The Curious Case of Equivocation! | Political Jesus
Obviously you missed the point of the little exercise in circular logic as expressed by evolutionists.
Excuse me for a moment please, I will be in the kitchen popping a little popcorn!
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I so hate it when the other fellow blinks first...I was quite enjoying duelling memes....
The meme was not intended to be a definitive argument for or against Young Earth Creation or Evolution. Although intended more as a bit of tongue in cheek joshing than a serious theological polemic, (hence it being posted in the humour, jokes and diversions forum instead of the F&R forum: unfortunately SM doesn't have a science and philosophy forum at SM) it seems to have taken on a more serious tenor than it merited.
Debating with memes is quite challenging in so far as making a case without inserting logical fallacies is concerned....There were not a few on both sides of the divide....unfortunately the content of most memes come as a package deal, which makes separating fallacious arguments from them not such an easy task.
The first premise "Fire trucks are red" is a false premise in our reality...the premise could only be true in a reality where fire trucks could only be red. That is not a reality that either of us lives in.
If the premise, "Fire trucks are red" were true, then all yellow, blue, green, white, orange, purple and pink fire trucks would not be fire trucks in our reality.
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This is not a fire truck in our reality!
The second premise is flaky also....
"...If you deny red trucks are not fire trucks: You deny reality."
Not all red trucks are fire trucks: Depending on a specific red truck's function, I could deny that a given red truck is a fire truck or not, and not deny reality.
If I denied that this red truck was a fire truck....
via:red | Photography Blog of Watcher Romano
would I be denying reality?
(oh well...I guess it is theoretically possible to fight fires with ripe apples!....but a load of ripe apples, a fire truck doth not make! )
Edit: am having an exasperating time inserting the appropriate images in the appropriate places
Which is why it was moved to F&R in case you hadn't noticed. The thread did not go as planned -- Science and religion do not follow the same rules for proof, nor lend themselves readily to point -counterpoint humorously. Very seldom will creationism and evolutionism coexist peacefully for long, certainly no longer than the religious and atheists will keep to a peaceful discourse. Continuous pinging on one another is going to "create" friction and bilious exchanges.
Though it should be noted that the scientific explanation for TTOE is not an exclusively atheist stance. Many theists have little difficulty in accommodating TTOE, and do not take the Biblical creation narrative literally, as can be attested in the case of Ken Miller. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District) , et al. The TTOE seems mainly to be problematic for biblical literalists and others wishing to undermine science.
I'm firmly of the opinion that God (my God at least) operates thusly:
He (yes, he...remember, this is MY worldview) operates within the laws of science (to a point to be addressed below).
He has a perfect understanding of science, whether it be biology, chemistry, physics or male/female interaction.
His perfect understanding of science may or may not have allowed for an...evolution if you will, into a being that can command the elements (hence operating within the laws of science...to a point).
There is nothing to say, that is to say there is no PROOF, that an...entity cannot have the ability to command the elements, whether it be a "psychic" ability or otherwise.
I also believe that to deny evolution outright is more than foolhardy. We have witnessed it, to a degree, within the last several hundred years. The appendix is a vestigial organ that serves no purpose within the human body and it has been documented that people have in fact been born without them. It has gotten smaller over time and I see no reason that we wouldn't eventually "evolve" to not have one anymore.
Darwin even showed an explanation, if extrapolated outwards (which is the basis of many scientific theories/discoveries), of how there could still be man and apes. Look at his research in the Galapagos Islands with the two different "communities" of birds that were related but different enough that they didn't recognize each other. They evolved separately. If there was a 'splinter' group of, let's call them apes, they theoretically could have evolved separately and distinctly.
Do I personally believe in a strictly evolutionary timeline? No. Do I take the words in the Bible as the literal truth? No. Face it, the Bible doesn't address GIANT FREAKING REPTILES AND LIZARDS! One would think that if the "age" of the earth was as the good book describes, dinosaurs would have at LEAST garnered a passing mention.
Of course I've heard competing theories about that as well. One of the most common is that God organized this earth using the pieces/parts of previous planets, which I guess is fair because there really isn't anything in the Bible saying that this earth is/was the first or only planet with life that God created (although there is evidence to the contrary and that he's written it off to a failed experiment).
We do have fossils of creatures that aren't explained in any religious text (that I know of). We don't have any other explanation for the petroleum deposits that we use today that take a really, really long time to form, etc.
I'm rambling but I'll add a couple more "it's a combination" thing. The Bible mentions days, in the King James version. I've read somewhere that the actual word in Hebrew (I think) translated more closely to "period" rather than days. So there were distinct periods of creation, which gets credence from "on the seventh day, He rested from his labors for a time". Another common reading of the time frame is that God's day is some fixed but MUCH longer time than 24 hours because we measure a day based on our reckoning. For a being where time is one eternal round that can see all of it at once...how long is a day?
The Bible does INDEED address GIANT REPTILES.
Dinosaurs and the Bible - Answers in Genesis
Sorry @Falcon15. I see a lot of must have's in that article and nothing addressing giant reptiles directly (which was my point, and no, I don't buy the dragons bit). I've read through the whole thing, which even though I'm not an evolutionist, I found condescending to say the least. I personally take a creationist stance but that was just...well, I don't have a word for it but I was non-plussed.
Please don't ask me to explain this or that because I can't, that's the root of faith. What I won't do is completely disregard the possibility of God using physical laws to their utmost and perfect ends, including evolution. There are multiple definitions for evolution, btw, including:
1. the process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of the earth.
Without being ethnicist, could evolution not account for the diversified "races" we find on earth today? I understand the mark of Cain, got it, but that doesn't explain the Inuit or the Asian peoples and it doesn't explain the pygmy's...the definition of evolution above does.
I don't find the theory of evolution a challenge to my faith because to me, it fits in with my beliefs. Like I said before, I believe that God used a perfect understanding of ALL THINGS, including science, to organize the earth out of matter unformed. To cause the Sun to begin the nuclear reaction that produces light, and do so more times than we can count to put the stars in the sky. To cause the earth to rotate and generate gravity. To place a moon in the sky as the lesser light. To raise the dry land and separate the waters. And yes, to organize the bodies of all living things, including man, and give them the breath of life and imbue them with a soul.
To me, nothing could be more beautiful than seeing (wish I could have been there) the perfect orchestration of it all and then to know (or believe) that it was done through a perfect understanding of all things to the point that elements obey their master.
One people. One RACE. The Human Race.
Separate names with a comma.