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Lethal force realities (podcast)

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by Tango3, Nov 10, 2011.

  1. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    "No glory in death"...
    Jack Sperco's(sp?) "survival podcast" . I find I like where he's coming from the more of these podcasts I listen to.
    roughly one hour on "lethal force" :myths and realities. thought provoking.

    here 'tis:
    Thoughts on the Use of Deadly Force | The Survival Podcast
  2. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    I caught that podcast some time ago

    Jack discusses a number of issues about the use of deadly force that bear contemplation. The use of deadly force is not without consequence...and it is better to examine the possible consequences and reconcile them as best one can well BEFORE the necessity of actually employing them. Failure to do so means that that internal dialogue is crammed into the miliseconds between the realisation that one's life is imminently at risk and the realisation that decisive action is required to save one's own life or someone elses life. Having an internal dialogue about whether or not to use lethal force under such conditions could result in the defender choking, or making poor quality decisions. To save time it is wise to establish some rules of engagement that will help save critical time when it is most desperately needed.

    To the majority of those who say that they would use lethal force without batting an eyelid....I would suggest that there are many who may be deluding themselves, or that in some cases they may have pychopathic tendancies. Killing someone is not so difficult as one might seem (having said that...the human body can at times be so vulnerable and fragile, yet at the same time so resiliant as to endure remarkable punishment), but employing lethal force is also not such an easy thing to do physically or psychologically.

    For more information about the psychological dimensions of using lethal force have a look at:


    referring particularly to pages 8-24.
  3. beast

    beast backwoodsman

    either that or weve been there, done that before
    Falcon15, Alpha Dog and chelloveck like this.
  4. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    Agreed, that is also a possibility...particularly among LEOs and ex service personnel.....even so....there is a strong societal and psychological aversion to using lethal force. The armed forces, and to an extent LEOs overcome this natural resistance by using comprehensive training in as realistic simulation of lethal force scenarios as possible.
    Falcon15 likes this.
  5. goinpostal

    goinpostal Monkey+

    As someone who's been in multiple encounters,and caught multiple bullets,I can tell you what will make the difference between life,and death.
    If you freeze in a lethal encounter,you will die.You cant afford to think,and need to react instinctively.
    You must be willing to use lethal force in a split second without thought,to either eliminate the threat,or reach cover.
    I call this"shoot&move".It's much harder to hit a mobile target,than a stationary one.
    As you're on the"shoot&move",it's either to get away,out of site,or to put something between you,and the bullets/threat.
    4)"Forget all that Bull$#it you see on TV"!!
    Becouse 99% of it is just that,Bull$#it!!
    5)"Targeting on the move"!!
    Even in close quarters.When your under stress,and on the move.Hitting a target with your handgun,who is also on the move,and shooting back,is no easy feat.Even someone with training,and is an expert shooter will have trouble shooting with any accuracy.
    In many cases spray,and pray is whats going to get you away from a threat.
    In the majority cases a predator will flee at the first chance if confronted with force.
    If an aimed shot can be taken,it would be best,but to do do so will expose parts of you as a target.
    Of the training that I've had.None of it taught how to shoot blindly around corners,or under/over obsticals while prone on the floor after taking three.45acp slugs,without looking.I learned this lesson the hard way.
    I was visiting an old friend from School who had moved to Miami.
    We were watching the tube,at his place and knocking back a few beers,and were catching up on life.
    He was sitting in the recliner,and I was on the couch.
    Two thugs kicked in the front door,and opened up with Uzi's.My friend was in the direct line of fire,and took about 20rounds to the body,neck,and head.
    He only had time to get his 1911 out of the armrest cubby,but didnt have a round chambered,so never got a shot off.
    I grabbed my ported AMT.45 backup out of my belly band,and started shooting as I flew over the back of the couch.I was hit three times at this point.
    I emptied the rest of the mag under the couch at their feet.
    By the time I had the spare mag loaded,the @$$h0les had bailed.I then drug myself from behind the couch,grabbed the phone,dialed 911,hollered shots fired,and ambulance.Dropping the phone,I went to my friend,and held him as He bled out,and I passed out my self.
    The next thing I remember was waking up in the hospital five days later.My friends funeral was the next day.
    According to the cops,a hit had been put out on some dope guy living on the next floor.The thugs got the apartment right,but the floor wrong.
    The cops also told me that from the blood smears in the hall,I got at least two hits on the thugs.They figured that from a drag smear on the floor,and one on the wall.
    Thats two hits out of seven,at a distance of about 20'ft.That's with a ported pistol that I could hit a milk jug 8out of 10 shots at 100paces.
    The punks were never found that I know of,dead,or alive.
    I moved to Alaska shortly after the incident,and became kind of a walkabout hermit for a few years.It's where I finally got myself right with God.
  6. BTPost

    BTPost Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    Alaska can do that, for folks who need a "timeout" after a Stressful situation...... The bigger the Stress... The farther out you need to go......
    ..... YMMV.....
    radpug, Falcon15 and goinpostal like this.
  7. Pax Mentis

    Pax Mentis Philosopher King Site Supporter

    Whenever someone says they have been there and it didn't bother them in the least, I always assume they are either:

    1) bat**** crazy
    2) In denial
    3) Full of BS
    tulianr, Falcon15, Alpha Dog and 3 others like this.
  8. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    The human mind is capable of rationalizing some pretty extreme behavior, including not only the use of lethal force in a defensive or offensive situation, but the cold blooded murder of our fellow man, as well. Death is just the end component of life and any emotional baggage attached to it should only involve the innocent or the loss of those important to your being. If needed, I will chew your leg off and beat you to death with it. Otherwise, carry on; nothing to see here.
    Alpha Dog and Cephus like this.
  9. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Just watched" the road" you wouldn't lock me in the basement ("bilges" (?)) and chop off that leg with an axe for your stew pot;
    Would'ja "Seacowboys" (?)
  10. Alpha Dog

    Alpha Dog survival of the breed

    Training does alot of preperation and helps you prepare for self preservation. As an L.E.O. the use of deadly force will always leave the thought of what could I have done different. The taking of a human life when close up and there is no question that you took the life of another and you see the life leave that persons body changes you as a man. It is something you can never change or take back. AS for child molester's or rapist I feel nothing. Whats dose bother me is the 19 year old kid who is in the alley with a gun scared who has screwed up and feels he has no way out. Not a criminal just a confused scared kid but at the same time you have to make sure you get home to your family. I think Military and L.E.O. who has been there has just learned way's to live with it but they never foget it. If you don't learn to live with it you will go crazy and we all have different ways to to handle it. I do believe the one's who talk about it all the time with big stories and swear they loved it have never been face to face with the man he had to kill. or like PaxMentis said Bat$h!t crazy I do no one or two of them but they were special OP's
    tulianr, Falcon15 and chelloveck like this.
  11. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Just got a "thing" against mall ninja's who laugh this stuff off to act tough..
  12. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    As a certified candidate for "Mall Ninja", tough has got nothing to do with it, you just learn to put everything back on it's proper shelf. And we can learn so much about being a real badass by reading and watching these great little how to kill folks videos, podcast, pdfs, whatever. I remember that pretty shiny red thing on top of the stove and being told repeadly that it was hot. I did not know what hot meant until I touched it and blistered my fingers; I wish it were still just a pretty red thing.
    Falcon15 likes this.
  13. GrandpaDave

    GrandpaDave Monkey++

    As a combat Vet I can tell you when bad guys start shooting at you you shot back...
    and yes I have PTSD and nightmares... A strong aversion to blood and the color of...

    So the question becomes is anyone ever really prepared to us "lethal force" through training???

    we the act of responding to a threat can become reflex through training ...
    but taking another life maybe not so much...

    "lethal force" you do what you have to do... but no one in their right mind is ever prepared for it...
    tulianr, Tango3, BTPost and 1 other person like this.
  14. Falcon15

    Falcon15 Falco Peregrinus

    In my personal experience, my mind turned off. I just reacted. I did not decide, "hey, I'll use lethal force" I just did what needed to be done to nullify the threat. Thank God for military training. When it was over, and I saw what happened, I was deathly ill. I have nightmares to this day. That does not mean my reaction will be any different, next time. I am lucky enough that during the event, I was emotionally detached. It was in the aftermath that it overwhelmed me. I have made my peace with the Lord, and I will not hesitate to use any level of force as needed to protect my loved ones or myself.
    Tango3, GrandpaDave, BTPost and 3 others like this.
  15. Alpha Dog

    Alpha Dog survival of the breed

    I agree I think it becomes more of a reflex to defend your own life and one can never be prepared for it we just learn to live with it.
    GrandpaDave likes this.
  16. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    When someone discusses the "Myths and Realities" of emotional conflict and such in the use of lethal force or changing a tire, you still have to admit that it is subjective. Studies done on hundreds of people are still subjective. Chewing someone's leg off and beating them to death with it isn't Mall Ninja tough, it is just using whatever is available to preserve your life. This is one person's or a group of person's opinion based on their unique experiences and upbringing.
    I failed my first use of lethal force when I was thirteen or eighteen, so I also have a very subjective opinion. I took a loaded rifle from my father and mother as they fought on the floor trying to kill one another. i will never ever forget the looks of horror and fear on my younger brother's and sister's face standing in the doorway at 03:00 in their bed clothes, my little sister clutching a teddy bear watching helplessly waiting to see if the woman, their mother, screaming for me to "Shoot the son of a bitch, he's trying to kill me..." or the man who had only earlier that night been beaten half to death by my mother's new "friends" and his buddies, cried for me to help restrain her, that she had gone completely ****ing crazy...but I digress, as is typical of Mall Ninjas.
    I did not shoot either of them, preferring to intervene more diplomatically and exchanged my rifle for several years of internal dialogue, the should have dones and could have done , the he saids and she saids, with time so halted by that moment that I didn't date throughout high school or have any real friends, none that lasted beyond sharing a joint or playing a game of basketball. This lasted until five years later, while employed by ICG Rail Road on a maintenance of way gang, my foreman was the same cocky sob that had nearly killed my father and I hated him and contemplated his murder, planned his demise, dreamed my revenge for all those years of helplessness, anger, and frustration...until one day when I actually found Harry England in the cross-hairs of the very rifle I have taken from my parents five years earlier (and I hope you get to read this you son of a bitch). He had taunted me at work, when he finally realized who I was, the child of one of his conquests and actually bragged that my mother was a "pretty good ****". I decided to kill him.
    I set the stage and lured him into my kill zone and watched him through the cross-hairs with a 240 grain jacketed hollow-point to be delivered to his head. I began pressing the trigger a hundred times as each voice taunted me , as the frustration of my stolen youth claimed its reward, as the internal dialoge finally spoke clarity; I did not have to kill the fool, it was a choice and one that only I could make? Could I pull the trigger? Oh yes, I could. Would I deal with the aftermath emotionally? No; that had already been done a million times over. Did I pull the trigger? No, I did not choose to. I determined to kill the internal dialogue instaed. I determined to find the correct shelf to store all these memories, to display the value and the cheapness of life. I have not dealt with internal dialogue or conflict since. Since, I have worked in 23 different countries. Fifty-Six years later, I have worked in war zones, I have lost friends and co-workers in tragic accidents and murder and collateral damage. I have had to kill. "Mall Ninja"? Maybe...Nothing to prove, especially to some anonymous jerk on an internet board. Some of you know me and some of you have even shared adventures with me; you know me. Bat-**** crazy? Ya'll can be the judge of that.
    Alpha Dog and Falcon15 like this.
  17. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    Given the right circumstances most people have the capability to kill a fellow human being....a human history of conflict, warfare, criminal homicide and genocide can attest to that. Fortunately for our survival as a species, there are strong biological and societal mechanisms that tend to minimise the incidence of lethal force, to the extent that some will choose to die themselves rather than take someone else 's life.

    SC puts his finger on the nub of it, when he refers to an internal dialogue, that Irish parliament of the head wherein the Ego stands referee between the Id...that says "pull the trigger and be quick about it! ....because your life (or someone else's) is in imminent peril and if you don't, there will be consequences"....and the Super Ego that says..."don't pull the trigger... because it's morally wrong and there will be consequences".

    As far as employing lethal force.....either to do so or not to do so will usually have significant consequences and costs to balance and deal with at the time of decision, and subsequently. It is important to the psychological health of the survivors to reconcile their actions and if necessary seek assistance and support in doing so.
  18. Kingfish

    Kingfish Self Reliant

    Wow, That was pretty deep. I have been fortunate. My life has never taken me to the brink of killing another human. Never been to war or been shot at. I am not my any means squeamish or weak minded. I have the ability to turn off my emotions but I have no ellusions about facing combat. I have trained as much as I can and I know It will not be easy to kill. I hope the time never comes when I have to find out. Kingfish
  19. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Wow did this thread take a turn for the worse.[peep].
    Seacowboys: " that"mall ninja" comment was in no way aimed at you; I'm very sorry you took it that way. I know you shoot and compete more than probably anybody else here(certainly more than I do).[gun]

    Personally I read that: " BAT****" comment to relate to someone else's post also....
    That's all... :D

    Sheesh touchy subject...[shtf]
  20. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    tango, I did think it was directed at me and found it amusing as hell; no reall offense taken, but damn, that was funny.
    RightHand likes this.
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