Lets Have A Discussion About Nickel Iron Batteries

Discussion in 'Off Grid Living' started by Kingfish, Jul 15, 2012.


  1. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    Well Not quite, there Iron Bran... The amount of actual daily sunlight, available in alaska, is dependent on, your Latitude, your cloud cover, AND the Day of the year. The Total Yearly Hours is only dependent on the cloud cover, as in summer the Sun is available longer than other places. where as in winter , there considerably LESS Sun Hours available, on a daily basis. Where I live, at latitude 58°, there are many outfits, that power 90% of their places with solar. These folks are summer only residents. During the winters these same systems, work for about 35% of the power needs depending on the size of the arrays involved. Some can barely overcome the inherent self-discharge of the battery system. The farther North you go, the more pronounced the difference between Summer, and Winter Solar Power available. (not accounting for cloud cover)
    ..... YMMV....


    Alaska@10 Pm.
     
    hank2222 and TheEconomist like this.
  2. Kingfish

    Kingfish Self Reliant

    Zappworks claims to build their batteries in Montana. Is this not true?
     
  3. Kingfish

    Kingfish Self Reliant


    I am not looking to go off grid or Grid tie. My goal is to have a small pv system ready to go should I need it. I want a battery bank that will sit in float mode for as long as I live. It seems that these batteries will do that. Once in use I expect it run two appliances both 5 star energy efficient. One refrigerator and one freezer. About 10 amps of 120 for 1/2 an hour 4 times per day. These units use about 5 to 6 amps and will be on timers. I am pretty sure a 12 volt system will do this. There are even more efficient appliances from companies like Zapp Works and Sun Frost which run on even less power. My goal here is a battery that will not die in 20 years but continue with regular upkeep. My goal is to have a battery bank kept in float mode using grid power with my small solar array and inverter/charge controller in protected storage.
     
    hank2222 likes this.
  4. TheEconomist

    TheEconomist Creighton Bluejay


    I just found my new desktop background, thanks B!
     
  5. PAGUY

    PAGUY Monkey

    A bit of a bunny trail but, there was a comment about no sun in Alaska during the winter. Have you tried to couple wind driven generators to the system?
     
  6. CATO

    CATO Monkey+++

  7. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    The simple FACT is that I have a very small solar system at my beach cabin... 1 240 Watt Panel and a MPPT Controller. I have a small 3Kw Onan Diesel Genset, and a 3Kw ex-Military Gasoline Genset, that provide my power, down there. Here at home, I have a twin pair of 20 Kw Northern Lights Diesel Gensets that supply my Primary Power in the winter. During the summers, I get my power from the Cannery, from their 2.8 Megawatt Diesel Powered, Powerhouse. Since I am the Fuel Distributer for the area, my energy costs, are just part of doing business.

    Wind is problematic, here at this location, as I live in a fjord, that is about 3/4 mile across, with 3000' Mountains on both sides. We do get some hellacious winds (150 Knot) around here in the winters, but nothing steady enough to provide useful power. Wind Generators have been tried, and discarded, because they just can't stand the High Winds, and there isn't enough steady winds to make them pay off.

    The real alternative Power Producer around here is MicroHydro. There are creeks coming down of the mountains about every mile of two, and if you live on, or near, one of those, 1Kw is easy to get, out of a creek. The Army Corps of Engineers did a study of North Creek, here where I live and calculated that if we put in a Hydro Plant it would be good for 1.2 Megawatts Minimum, year-round. To bad the Obama Bucks never covered Hydro Projects, or we would be 50% Renewable Energy, around here, for a measly $10MillUS... Oh well, maybe Romney will fund it, when he gets elected.....
     
  8. hank2222

    hank2222 Monkey+++

    My whole idea is to run with a four part system if i move up there

    .1-part solar for summer spring and fall time use of the sunlight to charge the battie bank
    2-part-small 6.kw diesel generator set up for the socalled winter time recharging of the battery bank set up .This unit is a Penkins diesel generator set up with a 19,gallon fuel tank base for use as need
    3-part-is maybe using the socalled wood gasifier type set up to also charge the battie bank during the time there is no sun around during the winter months
    4-small wind turbine set up for also during the winter months and the time the wind is blowing to help with
     
  9. Nadja

    Nadja RIP 3-11-2013 Forum Leader

    Bruce, since the obumble dictatorship is all about lying to everyone about everything, just tell him you need to money to invest in renewable "green power" a new concept. He will probably give you a couple of billion or so out of his pocket money. LOL
     
    hank2222 likes this.
  10. VisuTrac

    VisuTrac Ваша мать носит военные ботинки Site Supporter+++

    Ok, how about all those rolls of US nickels out there. Could those be used to create the nickel cathode? just curious.
     
  11. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Aren't they nickel plated?
     
  12. VisuTrac

    VisuTrac Ваша мать носит военные ботинки Site Supporter+++

    not plated.
    US Nickels are 25% Nickel and 75% copper.

    Canadian Nickels from 1955 - 1981 though are 99.9% nickel.

    Just how pure does a cathode need to be for use?
     
  13. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Crap I have no idea, but I imagine separating the nickel would be a pain if you had to do it.

    Also, if it's anything like making colloidal silver, even the slightest taint would prove to be bad ju-ju.
     
  14. BillBlake

    BillBlake Monkey

    Hello Group and Iron Edison Battery Co.,

    What I would like to know is how the Changhong Batteries that Brandon Williams is a reseller for are
    only good for around 3 years WITH Electrolyte changes according to the the Nickel Iron Battery
    Life Cycle chart at

    www.ChanghongBatteries.com

    See: 'Changhong NF-S series Nickel-Iron batteries for solar PV application.'

    This is a far cry from being able to run the Ni-Fe Cells into the ground and then just change the electrolyte after 7 to 10 years and they are like new again. Like it free candy!

    Changhong the actual builder of Iron Edison Batteries says the Ni-Fe Cells were SHOT
    at around 3 years old - let alone (good forever).

    Yes Iron Edison sells the TN series so he doesn't look like his former boss at Beutilityfree but just like
    Brandon has put in writing when he also claimed to be a Changhong reseller in writing
    they are exactly the same batteries. Just different plastic cases.
    The NF-S are (see through) and the TN Series are not.

    <snip from the Changhong website>

    1.6.7 Cycling

    The Changhong NF-S series NiFe

    cell is adaptable to a wide range

    of depth of discharge (DOD). The

    number of cycles vary with DOD

    required. The lower DOD is, the

    more number of cycles are. The

    number of cycles reach thousands

    during shallow discharge, while it

    can only reach hundreds of cycles

    during deep discharge. The

    following figure gives the effect of

    DOD on the available cycle life.
    (See the website.)

    Here is the actual language (word for word) from an Official Changhong Ni-Fe Operators Manual.

    "4.8 Lifetime in Years and Cycles

    Life time: The number of full charge and full discharge cycles will

    be about 1000 times depending on proper maintenance

    including electrolyte replacement when needed.

    Much longer lifespans can be expected if regular discharges are

    less than 20%

    where the number of charge / discharge cycles will be between

    5000 to 8000 cycles.

    The end of the lifespan is defined by operation at 70% capacity or lower

    after replacing the electrolyte.

    In many applications the battery will still be very useful for
    many years or decades beyond this." <snip>

    I'm aware that Changhong has recently modified this language a bit but they can't get
    to the published records in the SolarPanelTalk, Wind-Sun.com and Otherpower forums
    where thousands of people already read and can still read the information. The devils ;-)

    I have NO financial interests in Ni-Fe whatsoever. Not one single Nickel.
    I do have a long time interest in Survival Topics and lived off grid for 7 years in younger days.
    Still do a tremendous amount of camping.
    My concern is that honest people can think that they can get away with an undersized
    battery bank only to wind up being out a whole lot of money for no good reason.
    Or at least no reason I'm going to say here and now - but would like to.

    Brandon at Iron Edison. You claim, <snip>
    "don't hesitate to drop me a line with any questions you have!"

    OK, old Bill is asking you right here and right now.

    Bill Blake
     
  15. TwoCrows

    TwoCrows Monkey++

    Seeing the name Zapp Works made me wonder if they had any connection with the Zapp electric car ?
     
  16. Tikka

    Tikka Monkey+++

    FYI:

    "Downsides:
    Low efficiency - may be as low as 50%, typically 60-65%.
    very high rate of self-discharge
    high gassing/water consumption
    high internal resistance means you can get large voltage drops across series cells.
    high specific weight/volume
    can reduce the overall efficiency of the solar system as much as 25%

    This also means that the output voltage varies with load and charge much more than other batteries. If you are using an inverter, the inverter needs to be designed with these voltage swings in mind. You may not be able to use NiFe's if your system depends on a stable voltage, for example if you are running certain common DC appliances such as a refrigerator directly off the batteries. Also when using NiFe's to power DC lighting, you will notice the light intensity fluctuates. One could always use a voltage regulator to feed those appliances that need it, but that would decrease the efficiency even more."

    http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_types.htm
     
  17. Kingfish

    Kingfish Self Reliant

    Hank at Zapp works claims to have solved the variable voltage problems by partnering with Magnum inverters. They designed an Inverter that will work all the way down to 9 volts. He also claims they build their batteries in Montana and that their plates are not plated but pure nickel so they will last a lifetime. He has his own home in Montana running on this system. He wants me to see his home before buying. If he is using his own stuff I don't see a problem. He even has many original Edison cells that they used as models improving them to get wehere they are today. Call hank at Zapp works and talk with him. I want Andy to call him. I need more input on this . KF
     
  18. Kingfish

    Kingfish Self Reliant

    Here is the discharge curves for the Zapp Works batteries
     

    Attached Files:

    hank2222 likes this.
  19. BillBlake

    BillBlake Monkey

    Kingfish and the gang,

    Are you talking about the Zapp Star Edison Batteries or the Zapp Star "Single Plate Design"
    that is on the drawing board - coming some day.

    The 'Pure Nickel vs. Nickel Plated' argument is interesting but may not
    apply to Edison Ni-Fe Cells very much since the steel plates and the 'Pockets' themselves are just as
    'Nickel Plated' as the Chinese versions are.

    Edison didn't always use mostly Nickel. There were years that a Cobalt / Nickel blend or a
    Nickel / Cobalt alloy had more Cobalt than it did Nickel. Up to 70%.
    The Edison historian's talk about Edison running all over the place looking for Cobalt deposits.
    Mercury was a Long Time Edison favorite as well as other metals like Tin, Bismuth, Copper, Etc.

    The Discharge Chart you show is using Reconditioned Edison Plates with new hardware and
    new plastic cases as far as I know. The fact that those fellows are so alone with the Reconditioning
    of the old Edison Plates is a true Testament to just how weird and twisted this Ni-Fe subject became.
    It should never have been as secret as it seemed to be and is not like putting a man on the moon.
    Back in the day they took around 6 days to complete the process of driving the contaminates out of the
    Positive Elements which was mostly just waiting - not physical work.

    Carbonates, impurities in the electrolyte chemicals, certain acids, organic impurities, etc. were just a part of the problem. By 1907 Mr. Edison had moved 'Iron Poisoning' of the
    Positive Elements
    to the top of his Worry List.

    By 1904 Edison already had his first Electrolyte Filtering Process
    and his first Ni-Fe Plates Reconditioning Process.

    By World War One they had another 'Treatment' for the Electrolyte in the Edison US Navy
    Submarine Batteries. They had installed a drain tube / compressed air function to the cells.
    By the early 1920's Edison had a couple more Ni-Fe Reconditioning Processes under his belt.

    Why is it a Century later that we finally talk of such things??

    You can Google: 'Nickel Iron Battery Life Cycle Chart'

    and get a lot more info. The subject needed a thick, well laid out book.
    It got some posts that wander here and there but was better than the jive sound bite posts
    and twisted Ni-Fe Lies / Tales for decades now.
    Way better than nothing.

    Bill Blake
     
  20. Kingfish

    Kingfish Self Reliant

    Bill, please call Hank at Zapp works and talk with him. Then get back to us who are not so learned about the subject. Hank claims to be an ex Nuclear submarine builder and has some improvements he has made(according to him) I value your opinion so please call him and ask. Kingfish
     
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