Lets Have A Discussion About Nickel Iron Batteries

Whatever Fred,

Please confront any unique and history making statement of mine from any group
at any time but 'Name dat Tune' - Fred.
Just State what you have a problem with. I'll be nice.
But No Free fishing!
What did da Doctor say that you don't like - Fred.

So far this stuff about the Electrolyte Chemicals you claim is real weak Fred.
Are you talking about powder for electrolyte changes OR powder with the batteries from China.

Remember we have it ALL in writing Fred. Our records on BeUtilityFree are always up to date.

So let's say for some weird reason BeUtilityFree is risking prison and/or insurance problems by
DOUBLE shipping Chemicals to the battery customer instead of one shot from China.

(Of course you know that Iron Edison will NO LONGER touch the ALL IMPORTANT
Chemicals needed for Electrolyte Changes due to Insurance Problems.)
In writing, Fred.

Let's just say old Bill will buy your story. What is the LiOH Grade? The purity?
The volume ( g/L ) of the Lithium Hydroxide?

I was just listening to 'I don't need No Doctor' Fred.



Thousands of people in Internet Land have bear-ed Witness to the

Dime getting Dropped on you Mugs without having to know all of my business.

My stuff also goes to a number of top people at 'Changhong and the Electric Indian' in China.

Nothing from nothing leaves nothing. You have to provide something - Fred.

Old Bill Blake ..... (always the same name plus Sundetective at one place)

 

Fred, I don't KNOW anything about batteries. I know I buy a battery for my car and it works. I buy deep cycles for my boat and they work. Hank at Zapp works told me he had the last battery I would ever need to buy. " THAT" caught my interest. Then Iron Bran, Bill, and you come along debating everything about them from how they are made to how long they really last. This debate is between you and Bill now as I see it.

As for believing you? Would you believe I can walk on water? hit 60 home runs a year in the majors? I didn't think so. Look you guys are arguing about these batteries and I am sitting here trying to figure out what battery bank to buy before the freaking grid goes down. Ill be perfectly honest with you. I hate China. I hate our trade policy and I hate outsourcing. I was all set to buy a tried and true set of Gel mono block batteries and then I got this email from a friend which sent me to Zapp works. I called them and talked to both Stephen and then to Hank. Both seemed like nice guys. So I posted the question here for TN Andy and NADJA who are guys living off grid and grid tied right now. You read Nadjas response. THEN CAME BILL KNOCKING IT RIGHT OFF THE CHOICE LIST. You can now see why I am turned away from this. There is debate and doubt being offered up. I dont know Bill or you enough to take either of your words as the gospel there fore Im not going to buy one. Do you understand my position yet? I DON'T HAVE A CLUE WHO TO BELIEVE ,YOU OR HIM!!!.

I need something that works right now. I do not want to be second guessing my choice. None of you have proven to me that these batteries will do WHAT I WANT THEM TO DO.What Hank says and what you say are different even from what Iron Bran says. So who is full of shit and who is telling the truth?

Doug Laningham at Deka Solar said that Nickel Iron in the right hands is by far going to last longer then any other battery. However he told me kind of what Bill has said. They need to be cleaned properly, refurbished properly, refilled properly and maintained properly. To me this is not what Hank told me. He said 25 years with no upkeep and no worry about hydrogen. Then dump them, flush with distilled water and refill,good as new go from there. What I am reading here on this thread is not anywhere near that simple.

So in my opinion this battery is too complicated for me. I would need hundreds of gallons of Distilled water stored for any long term use without resupply. As a survivalist that does not appeal to me. I think I would rather have a set of batteries that are maintenance free and have them last for 10 to 20 years . I can get that with conventional Gel or AGM.

So again, Bill???? you have the floor. Fred???? you have the floor which one of you is wrong?

 

Kingfish in the corner pocket

Where dis 10 to 20 year Gel or AGM battery? Let me at it !
Old Bill also tries to stay up on his AGM as well as other technologies.

Relax. What your playing with is Not a sound bite subject.
Look what over 100 years of jive has produced on Ni-Fe.

Explain what "refurbished properly" is !!!

25 years on the Electrolyte using Edison Ni-Fe Plates. He he he.

Then WHY did Edison have his first Electrolyte filtering process by 1904.

His first Ni-Fe Plates "Reconditioning method" by 1904.

A Listing of Various Electrolyte Contaminates in writing by 1904.

Took his Ni-Fe battery OFF the market for almost 5 years in ? .......... you got it, 1904.

Extensive crying about IRON POISONING of the positive electrodes by 1907.

STILL crying about the Dissolved Iron and OTHER Dissolved metals for close to 20 years after that.
Then he retired and passed away.

A man that loved the Living He-l out of his MERCURY in his Ni-Fe and couldn't talk about
it enough starting by 1904 (or before). I don't have time to look it up.

EVERYTHING about His Excellency, Thomas A. - All in writing.

A veneer of knowledge can be a dangerous thing. It goes to the highest levels being quoted
in this thread. Only Old Bill is willing to take them all on - all at the same time. ;-)

Old Bill confronts the Line about all these years of Electrolyte Life.
Make no difference who says it.

Read the Edison 1924 Ni-Fe Instruction Book and get back to me.

Edison's Company says:

Change Ni-Fe Electrolyte every 8 to 10 MONTHS with Auto use.
Every 3 to 6 years with Ni-Fe Storage Batteries.

Bill figures the 3 years sounds about right at a MAX. of 30% Discharge.

Just what is listed here that is confusing?

I'll be gone for a day or 2.

Stay sharp but I give you at least 3-5 years before they move on the South China Sea.

This guy has your "stored hundreds of gallons of Distilled Water" 'swinging'

He Makes his own. He says Cheap and Plenty.

http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,146754.msg1007266.html#msg1007266


Bill Blake

 

Before my trip to behold the Latest advances by 'the boys' and 'the gals'
in Indoor Grow Room Food Production and Air / Water Purification
I wanted to leave something to help Kingfish and his gang decide



Bill Blake

 

It looked and sounded so good I knew something was going to ruin it. Really the best talk I had was with Hank at Zapp works who told me he had made several improvements including the use of Mineral oil on top of the electrolyte to stop the evaporation. Does this work? I don't know.

Bill, I plan on keeping a battery bank in float mode or dry batteries (lead acid). Gel will not degrade much at all over a 10 year period if kept in float mode. Doug Laningham at DEKA told me it would be best to draw them down 20% and charge them back up(using the grid) once every couple months to keep them at peak capacity. I want long term 6,000 cycles. I can get that with the Gel mono bloc battery. providing I dont draw them down too far. This means Ill need lots of charging options to keep this bank up to around 70/80 % But I know the projected life span of these batteries is 5 to 7 years at heavy use. No one is claiming they will go 20 years (unless kept at float for much of that time). Im also looking into your Dry batteries. I like the sound of don't open them and fill them until you need them. Ill use grid power until I cant. Im going to do a search on your dry batteries now. KF

 

Kingfish,

I have read the same thing you read about this "new battery technology". You go to their web site and there is NO PRODUCT available. The internet is a wasteland for "new ideas" and "new products" that will only come about in an "if and when" senario. I get excited when I can get my hands on something that is REAL, not pie in the sky. LiON and NiFE are real and one can test them, etc.

BilL my comments belwo:
Whatever Fred,

NICE ATTITIDE Bill. and thanks for calling me by my first name. AT least you got that part!

Please confront any unique and history making statement of mine from any group
at any time but 'Name dat Tune' - Fred.

I will.

Just State what you have a problem with. I'll be nice.
But No Free fishing!
What did da Doctor say that you don't like - Fred.

I guess you did not read my post very well. I asked what was the "doctors NAME so that one could verify what you star he said Bill. No name? That was I was asking Bill. A name of this "doctor"? SO let me be clear. May we have a name of this doctor that you talked to at Chnaghong battery company as I wiludl like to call and talk to him. With phone rate sso cheap why not?

So far this stuff about the Electrolyte Chemicals you claim is real weak Fred.

Please explain your self. Weak? How so?

Are you talking about powder for electrolyte changes OR powder with the batteries from China.

As I understand it the KOH and LiOH use to be packaged with the batteries from China. BeUtilityFree now ships those chemicals from within the USA now. Clear enough? How do I know this? Because I called them up and asked if the chemicals come with the batteries and that is what they told me.

Remember we have it ALL in writing Fred. Our records on BeUtilityFree are always up to date.

Appeantly not Bill. Better do better! LOL You are slipping! Oops!

So let's say for some weird reason BeUtilityFree is risking prison and/or insurance problems by
DOUBLE shipping Chemicals to the battery customer instead of one shot from China.

How can shipping chemicals legally cause any problems? Please explain your logic here Bill. Chemicals are shipped every day legally. Why would anyone ship double chemicals? That makes no sense.

(Of course you know that Iron Edison will NO LONGER touch the ALL IMPORTANT
Chemicals needed for Electrolyte Changes due to Insurance Problems.)
In writing, Fred.

How in the world would I know exactly what Iron Edison does or does not do. Apparently you do. So you are telling me if you bought a NiFe battery form IE that if you wanted an electrolyte change you could not buy chemicals form them? IS that what you are saying Bill? Oh and who do you know this? Just curious. One thing I notice about IE is that he comes on here and when you start asking questions he just up and disappears. LOL.

Let's just say old Bill will buy your story. What is the LiOH Grade? The purity?
The volume ( g/L ) of the Lithium Hydroxide?

Now how would I know that? If you want to know that contact BeUtilityFree yourself!

Have a good day Bill.

 

I agree totally, the internet is a wasteland of misinformation for those of us who do not understand or know the truth. Take me for example. I am trying to find and purchase the best battery bank available for long term emergency back up power. Im not looking to go off grid or even supplement my grid power. As a survivalist I am concerned about losing that grid power and losing my freezer and refrigerator. I purchased good short term back up power in a 120 volt 3000 watt Honda generator which can run my essential 120 circuits. I have an 8000 watt Generac Propane fed Generator hooked to 500 gallon tank to run our 240 needs mainly pump but again this is short term stuff. Gas and propane run out.

What I want is a long term solution using batteries that will last 20 years matching my propane stores which will be used to run our water pump. NiFE seemed to fit that bill. At this time I am looking else where. Dry lead acid will work if they are kept in storage and acid added when they are needed. This is now looking like the best option to me. Less money and dont fill them until you need them. I decided that Wood gas is going to be my main source of recharging so buying or building a wood gasifier and running an engine once or twice per week for recharging. This way I can use the same grid powered charger/inverter and not even worry about solar panels. Wood is my greatest asset here. I am surrounded by thousands of acres of oak trees. I have already built a small gasifier and burned wood gas and fully understand the way it works, how to clean and cool the gas and use it. Its very old technology. Way cheaper then solar and here in Michigan solar is not the best option. It woud work and if I have the time I may build an array as well but for now I have propane and Wood gas planned for my recharging duties. I could just get another bigger propane tank and buy a second generator as a backup. My refrigerator thread is really the point of my interest. How many batteries do I need to keep the freezer and frig cold for 4 days? 7 days? without charging. It seems that I can get (according to Andy) about 4 days on 8 batteries. So if do 16 I should be good for a week. That would be one charge per week. Batteries would last longer if I charge twice per week. Thats not to bad for wood gas Know what I mean? So I charge every 4 days and get maximum battery life. Any way I thank all of you for your input. KF

 

BillBlake,
I didn't write it. I read threads and if the subject catches my interest I'll research it. I live on a mountain top or ridge line and shiny solar panels?

I don't want to start a debate; however, after some of the issues with lead paint on toys and placebos instead of prescription medications etc sort of lowered my trust in China.

 

What really sucks about this Idea I had is that my wife got her ankle destroyed and we lost 65 k in income. We are still where we were when I did this post.. I have 500 gallons of propane and an 8000 watt propane generator along with our 3000 watt Honda gas genny. Propane lasts longer than batteries. In my searches I found the Rolls company who sells dry Batteries with electrolyte for a reasonable price. My wife says I can have a welder for my birthday so the Wood gas engine is going to be my summer project. Im going to find an older road crew gas engine 240 volt portable generator. Or maybe even just a small 4 cyl car engine. I have a friend who has a fully functioning wood gasifier fueled generator. It has a 12k head run by a 4 cylinder ford car engine. Water cooled etc. He is kind of an engineer however he rebuilds Automatic transmissions for a living. The guy is real handy. He also invented a waste oil burning furnace to heat his transmission shop. Burns used tranny oil and stuff.

 

Kingfish, did you give up on the Nickle Iron batteries? When you ended this discussion back in 2012, you ended up unsure about their suitability for solar power storage. I can certainly see why at that time. However, despite the reservations back in 2012 regarding the Iron Edison company and its product, they are still in business. They now offer complete solar systems. "Shop for Batteries on IronEdison.com" Anyway, I am wondering if your opinion for this battery technology has changed since then or, perhaps, you haven't given it much thought after the rather contentious debate on this topic back in 2012. Sorry to hear about your wife by the way and thank you for your time.

 

The only 2 things that are not great about nickel iron batteries is the KOH freezes at like +50°F and they are not real efficient.
But the length of life and the level of abuse and neglect along with being able to charge them untill they boil with no ill effect is impressive.

 

Given that a 30% solution freezes around -100F, could you please reference where the +50F comes from?

 

The 45% pot ash solution I use at work has a warning on it saying it starts to freezes at 50°F.
It must not bother the batteries much since they are approved to -40 degrees.

 

My .02 cents .
Much as I might like to invest in better batteries, here's the bottom line for me.
I own and use 6 volt golf cart deep cycle lead acid batteries ,cost about 100.+ per.
IOM it's a small price to pay right now and gets me some liberty off the grid to some degree.
If I had the spare $ ,I'd buy spare batteries and drain them rinse and store them till I need them, store the electrolyte in glass jars for the duration.
If I had the $ to invest in new style batteries for the sake of learning ,I'd simply add them to my system, and compare them to the service I"m all ready getting, comparing apples with apples .
Each battery is already on it's own switch as well as all the different soar panels and wind mill.
IMO, If your setting up only for the event, you'll know nothing about your system when the event occurs.
I am one of those that learn by doing , and I am glad to have had to build was I go, rather than some one dumping it all in my lap.
There are always glitches along the way, components that fail expectedly no matter how much you paid for them .
Warrantees ,guarantees mean nothing in the middle of no where, better off with out, than develop a false dependence .
When I buy presents , I put them to use right away to make sure they work . This has paid off several times in the past.

 

If anyone wants to send a set to me for evaluation (non returnable), I'll gladly put them through their paces!