your comparing apples and oranges... .45 and .44 mag are pistol calibres good for shorter range shooting... the .308 is designed for longer range shooting... Do you want a rifle round that is a ballistic equilivent to a .44 mag? if so what range... a .35 calibre can match a .44 at a longer range if i remember my ballistic tables...
A .308 with a 165 grain bullet loaded to a muzzle velocity of 2,700 fps has a muzzle energy of 2,679 ft lbs. At 200 yards it's energy is 1,763 ft. lbs. A .44 mag with a 240gr bullet at 1475 fps at the muzzle, has a MUZZLE energy of 1160ft lbs. So even at the muzzle, a .44 mag is nowhere near as powerful as a .308 at 200 yards. It's not that the .308 is a powerhouse, it's just that a .44, like almost all other handgun cartridges just does not compare favorably to centerfire rifle cartridges. The .44 is weak as a cartridge overall. It is just stronger than most other handgun calibers.....and this is coming from a guy who loves the .44 mag. As a handgun, or lever action carbine for short range big game, it is pretty darn good. Outside of that, there are better calibers for most things.
If you're talking lever guns, here is the one I'd like in say .308 BLR Lt Wt ‘81 Stainless Takedown, Level Action Take Down Big Game Deer Rifle, Browning Firearms Product I'd even settle for the standard Browning BLR, just saying, why settle for a .44 mag or 30-30 in anything else?
Doc I wasnt trying to say that 44 or 45 was comperable as far asc distances I was talking about the punch of the round, or its impact capability. the damage it does on Impact. so what i'm trying to find out is what round in a lever action that will pull that kind of punch in a range of 300 yards. I did look on midway usa's site after I posted this and the 458 looks like a viable option. Basically what I'm looking for is a round that will kill a freaking moose,caribou, or elk at less than 300 yards. To me a lever action is a extremely viable gun for a shtf situation, i'm just trying to figure ouit what caliber I need to buy it in to make it a gun defensive/hunting rifle.
Rex Lee, whoa, thanxs for sharing the Ballistics Calculator... forgot what I was going to write but... Thank you is good...
If it must be a lever gun and you want to go after those critters, check out the link I posted above or this one: Browning BLR Rifles, Product Family There are six different BLR models and they come in around 15 different calibers depending on what game you are after. I've a brother-in-law that has shot about all those critters you mentioned and several black bears with 7mm mag, a caliber listed in the Browning line up for their BLR. He used a Ruger M77 to hunt most of those critters. I think he also uses a 300 win mag some times. There is even a scout model in those take down BLRs to choose from. I promise, I am not pimping for Browning. I do own a Browning Buckmark .22 caliber pistol, which I love, most accurate .22 pistol I own. The cost for a BLR might scare you off, but if you are only going to own one big game rifle, I think it would be worth it to you to at least look at them. Now.... Listen up....
Savage made a neat lever action rifle, model 99 I think, and it was available in .308. It might be worth finding one of those.
Trapper and Wolf I will check out the browning and the Savage rifles you suggested. Thank you for your Paitiance with me I am still learning.
No offense intended to anyone, but here is how ai see the issue. True the .30-30 ain't perfect, but it's good none the less. Shoot two then load two and it will stay in action longer than you might think. Remington high speed loads of 150 gr RN at 2400 fps are accurate and if YOU are good enough will allow you to connect out to 400+ yds. If you don't believe this, I have a C note that says I can do it on demand. I would prefer several takers at once since Christmas is coming up. jim
Yea the good thing about lever guns, is they can easily be fed from any position from a pocket or pouch of ammo. Like Jim2 says, shoot a couple, load a couple and it would stay topped off pretty well.
That truly is the shining salvation of a lever action rifle, You deffinatly save on weight in that fully loaded magazines can weich alot expecially if you are using a steel magazine. three pouches on a load bearing vest and you can depending on the pouch and the caliber can carry double if not triple the amount of ammo you could carry in mags in blackhawk Load bearing vests. Three decent sized Pouches, say a binoculer pouch could hold up to ( Guesstimation) 500 rounds,or more. So it deffinatly is something to think about.
That's an excellent point that I had not considered. I have a lever-action win30-30 and love it. The old blunt nose rounds really have bad ballistics, and I hunt at 100+ yards here in Virginia. Since I got acquainted with the Hornady LeveRevolution rounds, my groups at 100 yards are consistent without barrel heating, even up to 20 rounds, one after the other. OTH, the old blunt nose rounds are heavier, move about 10 fps slower, and heat the barrel to the point that the fourth and consecutive rounds throw as much as a 3 inch group at the same range. In addition, the LeveRev rounds shoot way flatter, even out to 300 yds. And for all that, I always knew it wasn't the kind of gun I wanted to have to fire many rounds through in a hurry. For that, I'd probably like a magazine-fed bolt action in 30-30, for simplicity and reliability, along with the ability to have several loaded mags available on the side. Tube feed rifles don't allow for any of that, much as I love the lever-action.
True Tube fed magazines don't allow for simplicity, but your not going to want to put 100 rounds through it in 10 mins either. if you are going to take on armed merauders with it your toast but your pretty much toast even with a ar type rifle unless you can get them in one group and just keep pulling that trigger as fast as you can. in that case your better off being a part of a group,in which everyone carries a rifle. The primary reason I brought up the lever action in the first place was that if you do by chance "bug-out" and you get far enough away from civilization, a man could survive using a lever action. If there are others that come into your territory you just stay prtable and move on to another area,even further away fromn what used to be civilization.........If you have a location set in stone, where you are buging out too, it is a little harder to just pick up and leave that spot, that is the time you take a stand and defend till they drop you. yes in that scenario a mag fed bullet puker would be better. but a lever action is viable if people cant find you for an extremly long period of time.
This isn't the reason, though it fits our psychology, that my hunting buddies and I go to the areas no one else wants to hunt cause they're too tough to get to. We're all mid-50's or older, and have families, and most of us live and work in the DC area, so LONG trips (Canadian wilderness, like that) are out, not only because of time, but also because of money. But where we hunt, we choose the areas no one else wants to do the necessary climbing, or dead-lift a field-dressed White-Tail straight up a 250 foot cliff, while clinging like a limpet to the face. So, going where no one else wants to be would definitely be MY way to do the bug-out-boogey. And my wife and I are already, despite being in this area, farming a good bit of our food, with another family nearby. Hog butchering is coming in January. Just processed the chickens and half the turkeys. Planning to try some fish and shrimp farming, maybe next spring. My wife already grows and cans a great deal of our vegetables and spices. Doing the bug-out would be a mental shift, but not as much as for most of the city folks with whom I work.
Well brother your right there in Hells butthole.........If they get they're way with s-510 our gardening amoung other activities will be against the law...........it's called the food modernization act. I have not found out whom exactly wrote this bill but I bet you it has John Podesta's, and George Soros's Finger-prints all over it, by way of the center for american progress..........If you can find out anything,the info will be appreciated.
During WWII the gov tried to control food production, availability and pricing. All it really created was a black market that they couldn't even begin to get a handle on. We were in a real war at the time that had the support of the majority of the population. People then reverted to the bartering system to keep food on the table. If they really tried it today, they would have a bigger problem than the drug war we have today. People in droves would simply go around the law one way or another. This kind of thing that attacks the very basic elements of existence would probably result in a uprising of the population to such a scale, it could very easily bring down any governmental group in power at that time. How many other countries have you seen where the population came unglued when the very basics of life were threatened by their government? North Korea has its population in starvation by pure force of arms. I don't think the US population would stand for that type of a move by our government.
I just posted it in another area....It is Senate resolution S.-510..........It is a scary thing.... but I want you to think about something. They passed Health care.......They passed financial reform.........they have done this tsa thing.... people are cowtowing to this fascist president and his cronies...........Mark my words if we don't let our voices be heard this too will pass and be signed into law by Obama. In two short years we have moved harder towards fascism then any other time in history including the fdr regime. they actually did theres over the first 8 years.
What I think most of those in Washington have forgotten one major thing. There is always a tipping point in how far the population will allow themselves to be pushed. The strong core of Americans are right at that tipping point right now. With our boarders wide open, all it will take is one terrorist attack in this country that is show to have come through the Mexican boarder and that would be the end of this administration and its followers. Washington doesn't have a clue as to how close the boarder states are to coming unglued over this whole immigration issue. Most think it has quieted down because you aren't seeing much in the news. If those back east had any ideas of what the boarder states are about to do, they would freak out. This whole governmental control issue is very close to blowing up in their face. Health Care will either be repealed or strangled after the first of the year. Either by congress and its new members or by states keeping this in the courts so long it will die a natural death. Just what does the gov think it is going to do when 2/3 of the country simply refuse to comply with this stupidity. They can't arrest them all and if they try to go after them income tax wise, people will simply stop filing their yearly income taxes. All it would take would be for just 1/4 of the population to refuse to file some year and the IRS and probably the government would come apart. Personally, I don't think this is going to happen because the economy is going to take care of all these problems when it collapses in 2011. Everyone is talking up the Black Friday Sales figures but the truth that I'm hearing from business people around here is that shoppers are buying the ad items but aren't buying much else and what else they are buying are low cost and low profit items. This simply means that when all the figures are tallied up, the sales dollar amounts will show high but the profits will be considerably lower. This is going to cause an ever increasing number of business to close up. Thus more unemployment and more dissatisfaction with Washington. I have a friend who works for the AZ DES in the unemployment records division and the actual unemployment rate isn't any 9.7% or so. It's really more in the area of 20 plus %. All states have orders from Washington to cook the books so to speak so things don't look anywhere as bad as they really are. 2011 is going to be a very very bad year for many who are not prepared.
With this and your entry number 35, I'll watch it, and let you know what I find out. Where did you post the text of it? I'd like to go read it. I have several friends who work on the hill, and who could probably let me know what is happening with it, as it makes its way through the process. Of course, you'll see some of that progress reported in the press. If you are like me, you ignore the known liberal press, and listen to the more thoughtful of the conservative heads. We also have a paper here (of ALL places. Imagine!) which is really conservative. It's pretty local, but takes the whole current White House, and both Houses of Congress to task on a regular basis, for the best of reasons. I'll watch for it there, also, since they are more likely to tell the truth about it than anyone else is.
Am stepping down a bit farther to a 357/38 for the BOB. Reason is-pistol and rifle in same caliber. One should practice at 5-600 yds to keep out of range of most riflemen but for general usage 100 will suffice. If 500 come after your position just do not be there. That is what listening posts and recon is for. Fight on your ground-not theirs or on their time schedule.
