The 700 club has a program going on this week about near death experience people describing heaven and hell, I may be a little confused on this I thought those who are dead in Christ waited in the grave until all were called up to heaven and as the wages of sin is death the the trip to hell is not to burn forever but to die there . If it is not too much trouble could someone point me in a good direction .
Unfortunately, there aren't many dead people here, at least not ones that will admit to it. If I understand it right though, there is some sort of convoluted punishment/reward system that comes into play there, for example, your punishment might be streets made of gold and absolutely no-where to spend any of it...pretty frustrating, I would imagine. Pretty much all the dead people that I have come into contact with stayed that way or got another round to the brain-pan.
At my mother's funeral, afriend of her tried to comfort me by saying he was sure she wouldn't be in pergatory for very long. Made me feel ever so much better
Yeah, I agree. That seems to be the way that the Bible reads to me. Folks have used obscure references to make it say otherwise, such as the "White Throne Judgement" reference, but one can interpret isolated passages such as that in any way that suits them. Christianity has always been a very flexible religion, with many Christians incorporating non-biblical ideas into their faith system. It's been happening from the beginning, and even from before the beginning of Christianity, if you consider what the beliefs of the early Jews were. Like every other element of their lives, American Christians in particular want a "feel good" experience from their religious institution and belief system. It doesn't seem to matter to most there is no Biblical support for the things that they say. It's annoyed me since the time I was old enough to read the Bible. There have been some good studies done on these so-called "near death" experiences, where the described experience is almost exactly recreated in a laboratory, by stimulating the parietal lobe, or temporal lobes, of the brain with magnetic energy. Here are a few links on it, but there are many others: Temporal Lobes * Michael A. Persinger -- God helmet Near death, explained - Salon.com I have no doubt that these folks who describe "near death experiences" (my mother-in-law included) actually experienced what they say they did. The experience is very real to them, but I think the experience is contained within their brain. Just as "deja-vu" can convince you that you have already visited a place or performed a specific action, your brain can similarly convince you of other things, such as you floating above you body, or moving through a tunnel, or seeing bright lights. Folks interpret these experiences through the filter of their expectations, and voila - the heavenly gates are opening for you.
Unfortunately, I have a lot of company for this concern. The only thing that I know is that I do not know.
I think that's what the points are for on Survival Monkey. I have 18 of them so I should be in pretty good shape, at least through hunting season.
John Wycliff. Martin Luther. Should we assign blame to where it belongs? Perhaps it was all so much easier when the humble people simply did as they were told...I mean, it's not like literacy has improved greatly since the 1500's --at least, not for those living in America. (tongue in cheek) As part of my own experience dealing with a world which is still predominantly religious, I found it quite enlightening to actually meditate on the concept of what it must have been like to be told what the Bible says versus reading the translated versions from Latin and Greek to German or English, or Aramaic and Hebrew and literally or figuratively formed into thought on paper through the mind of one individual. All of this is also supposed to bring about some sort of reprieve due to the notion that I should be able to share the thoughts of the original author, which, as I am informed, should very well be the divine creator of the universe and all things known and unknown. And yet, the fact remains that I come out no better or wiser in the end even if I hadn't read a single word to begin with. Naturally, I can assign this effect with good reason due to the lack of pressure and risk of being tortured --a feat many of our relatives could only have once imagined. To think, there was once a time when the vast majority of people were obediently worshiping their god while the Church informed them about what the Bible said. The people tithed as was expected, or they faced ridicule and resentment from their peers, or worse --eternal damnation in a fiery pit of despair with gnashing of teeth and horrible, nasty things. Today, the concept of hell and its terrible maws do not quite have the same effect on people as it once did --at least, not entirely. We can perhaps begin to see why the power centers within the Church fought so vehemently against these changes. And so, what is to become of a people with the divine knowledge kindly translated into common tongue? The middle-man has seemingly been cut out of the big picture, and any reader possesses the ability to witness the words on paper for themselves. The Church had to readjust its strategy, with time it began a new journey which left it seemingly crippled compared to the days when every King and nation trembled at the thought of angering the divine spokesmen. Even King Henry VIII and his own church did not escape persecution, and there were many lives lost in the struggle to retain the privilege to ordain order with no stamp of approval by the Holy Roman Church. The point of my long-winded explanation is to attempt to illustrate how the concept of hell has been affirmed in the past compared to the modern day. As it was beaten into every mind long ago, with consequences far exceeding today, the fear of death and ones own purpose in life was made clear by instruction from men in robes. The people did as they were told, and the divine word took on new meaning after it became a personal experience. Is there life after death? Is there a hell and a heaven? Maybe it is up to you to decide that for yourself now.
Life after death is the benificent promise and the dire threat of many religions....the carrot and the stick to be proffered or wielded to encourage people to believe the most improbable of propositions....on faith. The Lottery ticket that cannot be redeemed this side of physical oblivion. If I was to take money for a comparable promise, (As the Roman Catholic Church did, when it decided that Papal indulgences would be a good little earner) I would be thrown into jail as a base, dishonest swindler. Yet, Christianity and Islam among others, make those promises and threats with a completely straight face, without even the slightest shred of credible evidence whatsoever. Although An Atheist may never be able to say, "I TOLD YOU SO"!!(post mortum), the faithful theist may well have spent a lifetime of Saturdays or Sundays and sundry holydays spent on their knees instead of playing golf, target shooting, hunting or doing something else that was actually useful to their lives, to no greater advantage than the dead atheist.
Hop wrote: " ... those who are dead in Christ waited in the grave until all were called up to heaven and as the wages of sin is death the the trip to hell is not to burn forever but to die there . " ----- James says: "Amen!"
Harry Houdini, was fascinated with what comes after, and disgusted with the fakes selling messages from the other side. To the extreme he destroyed con-men publicly wherever he found them. he swore, if there was any way to return for a message, he would do so......we're still waiting.
Hop, your confusion is understandable. When someone preaches from the bible, we usually expect them to get it right, especially since they are supposedly more learned than us. Unfortunately, Satan has been decieving us for nearly 6000 years, and only the Lord knows how long he was at it with the anglews before us. Needless to say, he has a lot of practice, and is very crafty at it. We are powerless by ourselves to outsmart him, thus we need to call upon the Lord for help. As in Revelation 22:18 "...If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plauges that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophesy, God shall take away his part from the book of life..." Those are pretty stern warnings not to make stuff up (like pergatory, disembodied souls of relatives coming back and communicating, etc) or you will pay the consequences. Just think of all those who are out there right now, preaching a false doctrine for their own gain. We were warned about false teachings and false profets many times in the bible. When Jesus brought Lazarus back from the dead (John 11), did he ask Jesus why he pulled him out of heaven? Did he complain about being ripped from eternal bliss, or praise him for delivering him from the depths and despair of hell? No, he didn't realize he was dead- he just hobbled out of his tomb because he was still wrapped up with grave clothes. He wasn't aware that he died. I'm sure this (the state of the dead) is going to be one of many beliefs that are going to be challenged in the near future. This a big decision for EVRYONE on the earth- you either read the bible and get an understanding of it for yourself, to provide a fortress of truth to surround your beliefs- or you follow blindly the teachings of someone that you think has a grip on the bible and take an enourmous chance of being led astray. If it is not in the bible, the doctrine is false. Plain and simple. Ask your pastor why people go to church on Sunday. Some will gladly give you a list of scriptures that they think support their belief, but in fact, Sunday worship is not biblical; it was brought about by the catholic church. There are no scriptures supporting Sunday worship, but conversly there are a bunch that support Saturday worship and the Sabbath. These are big issues, people have died believing in them many times in the past, and with more to come in the future. The question you have to ask yourself (and I believe you have started to, Hop, or you wouldn't have posted this question), are you willing to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, or the teachings of man?
And this is the issue, as humans we try to put God's plan into a human context. You don't need to, you just need to have faith in God. If you have true faith, and believe in your heart in God's salvation, then questions like this will just not matter.
Ah...Satan. Like the "New Testament", Satan is one of Christianity's cleverer inventions...well, more like a plagiarism actually. In various world mythologies, super hero gods had little to show off their super strengths with, to impress the rubes, without some kind of super villain to contend with and valiantly defeat. Considering that evidence of agriculture and animal domestication had taken place some 2K - 3K years before the biblical "creation", one may conclude that the biblical timeline (based on a concatenation of begattings) is wrong...or that the Satan "get out of logical reasoning" card is being used, thus demonstrating that Satan has deceived us, yet again. A Short History of Agriculture If we follow the logic of Satan the supreme deceiver...maybe, the myths, legends, fables and fairy tales of the Bible is Satan's greatest deception. Certainly Satan could only rejoice at the abject misery and hardship that the holy texts have unleashed upon humanity.
Well well, have read most of the posts but see very little "groceries" in them. Will not talk about specifics but will urge each to read the Bible for themselves. Taking others words/interpretations is not just lazy but dangerous. Some say it is fables conjured up by sheep herders etc etc. On the contrary--the dead sea scrolls revealed a complete book of Isaiah that is almost word for word the same as today's translations. The early writers were meticulous in their copying and translations. To make the New Testament easier, the first four books are called the gospels and are a history of Jesus's life, ministry, death, and resurrection. The book of Acts--what the apostles(Jesus's followers) did after His death. The books to the various early churches were letters written mostly by Paul to them encouraging them and sometimes admonishing them. Then there are personal letters directing, encouraging, teaching, etc. Finally the book of John's recollections of what God showed him of the future. When you break the Bible down into those and other categories it will become clearer. Please do not let false teachers deceive or mislead you. Study it yourself. It is way too important to delegate to others. A study Bible is a handy tool when studying and make sure it is a red letter (Jesus's words in red)edition. If you have a specific question there should be some here that can answer them reliably. If not we will dig it out of the scriptures.
Oh, poor Chello. I feel for you- I used to think the same way you do. You may try to misdirect my statement by connotating the idea that I need to blame someone for the misery of this world, and the coldness of the universe. Quite the contrary, it is hard being a Christian, and requires a strong mind and abundant willpower beyond that which I possess (I have to ask for it daily). Read Psalm 14 in it's entirety:
Myths and legends copied and translated faithfully, are still myths and legends. An ancient copy of the Illiad or the Odyssey found to be almost word for word the same as today's translations, may include smidgins of historicity...at least as far as Troy is concerned, yet still be largely a collection of fables, myths and legends. Are words attributed to Jesus, the same as the words actually spoken by Jesus?? Does shading the attributed words in red ink offer greater confidence that the latter is the same as the former, or is the former something quite different??
Sad that brilliant minds only see--he that has eyes, let him see---he that has ears, let him hear. Many will not--nothing unusual--just profoundly sad.
You know as well as I, and all other believers know that you can't prove the bible is the inspired word of God. It is about faith, either you have it or you don't, so there is no reason to argue about it. But for the sake of thought, if I am wrong as a Christian, I will have lived a good life, helped other people who needed help, and was comforted by my faith when times were rough. Then I die and its all over. If I am right however, I have eternal salvation with God. If non believer's are right, they can get most of the same benefits until they die. Then it's over. So if I am correct, I win, but non believers don't. If they are correct I still win. Funny how that works From a strictly secular, logical point of view there is no downside to opening your heart and having faith in God's promise of eternal life.
If you need proof then you need proof--where does one find it? To coin an old saying---"proof is in the pudding".
The way I understand it is the spirit and soul of a believer in Jesus Christ that is saved goes to heaven, the body is in the grave until it is raised up as a glorified body. The soul of those that are unsaved goes to it's eternal abode and the spirit remains on earth until judgement day. This doctor had a very interesting experience and is worth reading about what happened to him. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/26/books/dr-eben-alexanders-tells-of-near-death-in-proof-of-heaven.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0 I agree. IMO the only way a non-believer can find proof is from their own personal experience, I can't say anything to make them believe if they don't want to and I can point out historical facts and statistical impossibilities with the Bible and it will make no difference until/if they are in a place in their heart and soul to open their eyes to the word of God. The sad thing is many of them never have a experience with the Lord or want to by choice.
