MAGPUL - Art of the Tactical Carbine II

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by Brokor, Feb 5, 2010.

  1. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    I "could" have an extra copy of the DVD "Magpul: Art of the Tactical Carbine II" to lend out to 1 person who requests it. The first person to respond can use it and send me a PM to have it shipped. It comes complete with all parts and extra features. (It will play on PC's, but not in home theater DVD players.)

    Once you have it, you can decide to either send it off to another Monkey Forum member via this thread, or send it back. No strings attached, no hassles. Just saying..."if" I actually had a copy, I "might" send it. I am not saying that I do have one, though. Oh, one more thing. If I don't know you or trust you, chances are I probably won't mail it to you. If I had a copy. Right. That's all.
  2. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    If I knew where there was a copy that might be there I might watch it just saying.[winkthumb]
  3. gunbunny

    gunbunny Never Trust A Bunny

    I tried to purchase a copy of said DVD, but every time I was buying parts, the supplier was sold out.

    Is it worth watching? Did you learn anything, or is just those guys jumping around, crawling on the ground, and shooting like the previews show?
  4. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Surprisingly, I learned quite a lot...but I never was interested in M4 type of combat to begin with. Since my latest deployment, I gained some respect for the 5.56mm variants, and bought one. I can say that this video set will most certainly help anybody to realize the true potential of utilizing modern combat techniques with these rifle systems. I don't think that the videos are a replacement for actual practice though.

    Most of the classes in the Magpul videos were focused on increasing speed and effectiveness in situations which are pretty much uncommon and even strange (strengthening weaknesses), and utilizing buddy teams to apply cover fire while moving. These guys did a terrific job with this video, though.

    I still prefer CQB with the AK personally.
  5. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    You follow this guy?
  6. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Brokor, tell me why you "gained some respect for the 5.56mm variants" as I know you are a big AK fan. I have to say I was surprised to see the AR when I watched your Youtube video today of your home made Magpuls that you installed on your AR mags. Good video. I like the numbering magazine idea, because I have been one of those that tossed the mag off to the side then said "ok, which one didn't feed?" I also found the night vision video good food for thought. I haven't bought any, but like suppressors I will one day, so any information I run across I file back.

    BTW, I also LMFAO at the strip video.
  7. Byte

    Byte Monkey+++

    Oh yeah, E.L., I always number my mags. My OD AK-74 mags are numbered with OD green & my AK-47 mags are numbered with Armor Light Sand. Any non-reflective paint will do. Might want to check how they reflect IR too. Nothing like glowing in the dark & giving away your position!


    PS In theory, I'd be interested in looking at any alleged MAGPUL DVD's purporting to instruct in the tactical use of the carbine. I'm also not a fan of the 5.56 and currently own nothing in that caliber, however, I've been very tempted to acquire a piston gun from PWS.

    I have seen clips of some of the MAGPUL crew and I was not disappointed. They usually have a booth at the Denver area gun shows and they are great to chat with.
  8. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    I mark mine with a black sharpie, it doesn't show up unless you squint at it on the drabs, and barely shows on the greys. I suppose I could get a different color to make it less obvious --
  9. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    I am glad that you liked the video. It was a trick that I picked up from some Infantry NCO's who adapted it to their own rigs. The reason I have acquired more respect for the M4/5.56 weapon systems (thanks in part to the Magpul Dynamics DVD) is due to the rapid acquisition and re-acquirement of targets -and this is done only by eliminating some of the "bad habits" we may possess, I know that I certainly had at least one. The forward hold on the fore end grip for example provides a more steady posture and I found that it became almost natural to acquire targets rapidly. I have also changed my rail for a new quad rail system, allowing me to reposition my light and PAQ-4 (which I currently do not even use). I am still not convinced that the weapon system is preferable to my AK, but it has come a long way and certainly is deserving my full attention and very best efforts in an attempt to use it as a primary. I still favor the 7.62x39 and its penetration over the quick acquisition of targets on repeated fire with the M4, but I am near calling it a draw and matter of pure choice at "give and take" until I can fully remedy my own rapid fire drawback with the AK-47. In all, I would say that the very best system for me would be the AK-74 because this weapon system would pretty much assimilate the best of both weapons with only a slight drawback in caliber (penetration wise) vs. the AK, and a modest increase in reliability (compared to the 5.56) and other minor attributes. Of course, I still consider myself a novice as far as overall familiarity is concerned when it comes to the AK-74, but I really am quite comfortable with the feel and overall operation of the Kalashnikov rifles, and thanks to the before mentioned recent discoveries, I now have an additional appreciation for the AR/M4 variants as well.

    Some may claim that I am basically "splitting hairs" with my perceptions, but I am only being honest with myself due to my own life experiences. In Iraq, we had to keep our M4's dry or else they would jam up with sand (it really is everywhere) -and they just don't operate with sand, at least not at 100% efficiency. We all probably know that an AK simply does not have this problem. Faced with either (a) a faster tracking system which may fail, or (b) a slightly slower to acquire but always functioning one, I will have to choose the latter every time. Of course, I do not live in the desert any I must give credit where it is due. In the right environment, and with training and commitment, the M4 is quite admirable in performance. On the other hand, in any environment, and with the same training and commitment, the AK variants are just incredible. Almost even. Almost.
  10. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Piston upper AR-10..........
    I like the ergonomics and the accuracy of the AR, but the reliability of the AK.
  11. RouteClearance

    RouteClearance Monkey+++

    It would be nice if a AR 10 type piston conversion was available. The POF and LWRC weapon's systems are way too expensive for my pocket book. The only manufacturer of piston conversions that has said anything about developing and releasing a AR 10 piston conversion is Adams Arms, but they have been saying this for three years straight now. Probably will never come to be.
  12. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

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    Prices start at $2731 for the 16in model and LWRC is now accepting more pre-orders for the REPR. Check out our new photo gallery and find out more info about pre-ordering your REPR here:
  13. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

  14. Hispeedal2

    Hispeedal2 Nay Sayer


    I am surprised at your experience in the sandbox. It is completely contrary to mine. I would advise to run it wet. I have a bit of experience in this regard. Posted below is an excerpt that is taken from Pat Rogers' article on maintaining the AR series:

    "Remove the bolt from the bolt carrier. Turn the bolt carrier over and observe the shiny area on the bottom. This is a wear point. The slot that the bolt cam pin rides in is another wear point, as is the chromed hole in the bolt carrier that the bolt rides in. The entire bolt carrier can use a coat of lube, but pay particular attention to those areas. The military also states that a drop down the bolt carrier gas key is required. The bolt itself requires a coating of oil, paying particular attention to the bolt rings and the lugs. Those bolt rings function just like the piston rings in your car engine. How long do you think your ride would last without lube?? A properly cleaned and lubed carbine should go at a minimum of 500 rounds to 1000 rounds without any cleaning at all. However, using a suppressor will cut that number down drastically, as will firing multiple rapid fire strings or firing with the selector switch on “Group Therapy”. I advise shooters that during the chow break they should place a few drops of oil into those two gas ports on the right side of the bolt carrier. The lube will get into the gas rings located handily nearby and keep your gun running smoothly.

    Finally, a few drops of oil into the underside of the charging handle is not a bad thing.
    The AR system runs much better wet then dry, and we see that during every class. Understand that it is not the amount of lube used, but also the placement of the lube. At one class a very experienced shooter was having functioning problems. He pulled back on the charging handle to show me that the bolt was wet, but when he released the CH I could see that the area on the BC adjacent to the gas holes was dry. I placed two drops of Slip 2000 into those holes and the gun ran fine.

    The moral of this story is not just to put lube on, but put it on in the right places. Keep in mind that when at class and shooting 400-1000 rounds per day, the bolt will get blown dry. Adding oil during break time will keep the gun running and keep you learning new skill sets instead of becoming frustrated with a constantly malfunctioning gun.

    In the 90’s I worked for another government agency that had a large budget. We had a fair number of guns and a lot of ammunition, so on the down days I had the opportunity to play and run some informal tests. While the exact results have been lost to the ages, some salient points remain embedded in my brain housing group. A totally dry gun will run approximately 100-200rds before seeing problems. A clean but properly lubed gun in good condition should go from 500 minimum to 1000 maximum.

    More lube is not necessarily bad. I submerged the bolt and bolt carrier assembly into a bucket of oil, shook it off and placed it into the carbine. It ran like a clock though I only had enough time to fire off 4 mags worth of M855 through it.

    I have used every type of lube imaginable, going from WD-40 (especially good when you have a dirty gun), 3 in 1 oil, suntan lotion, butter to Vagisil- don’t laugh, it works. I may not want to use any of them for the long haul, but for a quick fix it beats having a non functioning gun."

    I tend to agree with Pat on this issue. He's probably fired 10 for every 1 round I have fired. There is more benefit to lubricating the M16 series. Sand is a problem. It is for any system if you just dump sand into it. Example of dumping grime into an AK:
    YouTube- AK Dirt/Dust Test
    It will choke any system.
    Getting away from the original intent of this thread. The M16 series is a great weapon. There is none more proven. I don't understand the hate for it. I and every service member I encounter daily is happy with their weapon. I would say the few that aren't (usually dug up from some Army Times reporter) probably were never taught the correct way to lubricate the weapon. There is a lot of bad information that circulates in support units that fire once a year. Junior soldiers often are reluctant to use lube correctly because some misinformed armorer says it supposed to be dry when he turns it in and the soldier doesn't want to have to clean all that lube off. Fine for 9 rounds to zero and 40 to qual. Not so fine for extended engagements.
  15. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    HSAl, normally I'd agree, the M16/AR15 platform wants to run wet, way beyond wet is better. The problem is with dust wanting to join with wet stuff, no matter it's composition and it gets to be a sticky quicky. In the sandbox, one theory is lube with some sort of dry material, and do it often. Fortunately, I've never had the chance to test that out, but the sources in theatre are pretty much in agreement that oil isn't a good option for the guys on the ground. (Mounted guys are a different class of operator.)

    FWIW, I ran an AR thru nearly 700 rounds on one occasion without significant attention to lubing beforehand. On another occasion, I had malfs with the same piece (FTFeed) after only 400 or so, again without lubing in advance. Not going to run that risk again. And, as you noted, it seems to make no difference what the lube is, just so long as it's slippery. Worth noting too, I think, is that the malfs I had were hot ones; after cooling off, they ran again for a while. I'm now going with high temp grease lubes on sliding surfaces (carrier rails and under the charging handle) and frequent heavy oil squirts in the keyholes. Once home, hose out the carrier with brake cleaner in the driveway, and add oil. Keep your mags DRY, if for no other reason than you can blow them out with compressed air rather than solvents.

    And so, back to the piston operated gadgets. I like the idea, but haven't yet got my mitts on one for a looksee. I understand the problem with canting the bolt, but I can also see ways around that with proper material selections. The problem hasn't got my attention yet, the piston has.
  16. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Highspeed, I have to completely disagree with everything you posted and linked. I can only speak from experience on this matter. I mean no disrespect when I say this, but the M4 is garbage in the sand box. Outside the sand, it is a very accurate and mostly reliable weapon. And for every AK youtube video claiming it fails with dirt or sand, I can provide dozens that prove otherwise. I can also speak from personal experience. I have never once had my AK fail on me, and I have used them in Iraq too.

    I don't understand the culture craze behind the M4/M16 weapon system -it's like a bunch of people heralding their support for their favorite football team or something. I am not saying you are doing that either, Highspeed.

    I was a 20 level armorer, and I know how to properly lube any weapon system. The M4 has too tight of tolerance in its upper chamber (gas driven) to provide adequate room for the bolt to function at optimum when a foreign debris is introduced. Period. Hell, I have had M240's and M2 .50's go down because they weren't properly kept clean and PMCS'd on time. They even trucked me out personally to a hot zone to remedy a situation on a Bradley because the crew couldn't get the coax to cycle more than 1 shot at a time. They thought the weapon was screwed. Nope, it was just dirty. That whole crew and the rest who had me respond were all punished. Even military soldiers don't know how important it is to keep their weapons clean and lightly lubed -and in the desert, it all gets harder because of the sand.
  17. Hispeedal2

    Hispeedal2 Nay Sayer

    Brokor, Ghrit,

    I hear you both. We can have this same tired argument but I think it has been done enough on the internet. It's long, tiring, and boring.

    The post I had from Pat Rogers shouldn't be taken lightly. He's no armorer and neither am I. Just a couple of operators. What I have gathered is from my experience. It may be a small sample but I am at least doing something right based on lack of failures. And I have sure had my share of sand storms.

    Bottom line.... I am getting up tomorrow. I will grab my seemingly dirty carbine that is well lubed. I will load up and head out again to do my thing. Zero fear whatsoever that I can't run every round on the team through my carbine with zero failures.

    Of the failures I have seen, lack of lube has been the culprit. A few squirts of lubrication will usually free up the weapon and make it work.

    Two major theories-
    1) Less lube is better because debris and sand is less likely to stick to surfaces

    2) More lube is better because it keeps debris/carbon from sticking

    I can tell you which one my team uses. I can tell you our experience is positive. A few tried the other.... malfunctions ensue.

    I don't believe a piston will help things. You get sand into a trigger assembly or the cam area of any AR.... the game is over. That is the nature of machines. It doesn't matter if you are running an AR, AK, Sig, FN, or and HK. My advice... keep your port cover closed and your weapon out of the sand... no matter what you choose.

    I'm not really a fanboy of the AR. I am a fan of any weapon. I can make most any work to great effeciency. I just understand the limitations that most all are subject to. Sand is one of them.

    I will get off my soapbox now. I guess we are in a bit of disagreement here. I'm tired.

    I am interesting in reading more about the BM piston retrofits. I have followed them closely.
  18. fortunateson

    fortunateson I hate Illinois Nazis!

    Why would you say that the AK is slower to acquire? Poor sights? General lack of accuracy? Maybe I don't understand the terminology.

    I have a cheap side rail on mine and just mounted another cheap red-dot site (yes, cheap is a general theme of mine). Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is that with a few inexpensive additions, target acquisition should be manageable.
    Accuracy... another issue.
  19. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    I thought this was obvious, sorry. After you fire a round, the weapon recoils. Perhaps I should have explained it in extreme detail knowing full well that not everybody is as familiar with these rifles as I may be. Additionally, not everybody is a psychic and can know what I mean when I type something and it is not spelled out clearly. I will rephrase to eliminate any possible misunderstanding.


    5.56mm = less recoil = faster target RE-ACQUISITION

    7.62mm = more recoil = Slightly decreased target RE-ACQUISITION

    If there is any doubt as to what I meant now, then I cannot help to clarify any further. Take it easy.
  20. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    I CALL BS! I have had enough of your contradicting text. The AK outperforms the AR in extreme environments (mud, dirt, sand, water) and you CANNOT simply combine these into one group. The AR will FAIL with only a minor amount of contaminate, whereas the AK will withstand MAJOR amounts easily. SO STOP YOUR NONSENSE PLEASE.
    We all know this already. Stating the obvious doesn't make it apply just the same to the AK as it does an AR, so give UP on this debate. If you want to argue ACCURACY or RAPID TARGET ACQUISITION, then I will listen -but don't even DARE to start blabbering on about your personal opinions. WE ALL KNOW THAT YOU FAVOR THE AR, so just leave it at THAT, ok? Seriously.
    Wrong again. Pick up an AK. Dump sand in the receiver with the other hand. Work the action two or three times. Now slap it, chamber a mag, and fire. IT WILL. Now, do the same for the AR, but don't sit there blowing on it, washing it out, etc. Guaranteed, it will most likely FAIL. Call me out on this, I dare you. Lay it to rest.
    Then try not to state the same thing over and over again, get the last word and contradict yourself in the process. Seriously, I cannot stand it when people are manipulative and use abstract reasoning to attempt to justify their own opinions.

    And one more thing. I am not ANGRY at your statements. You do not need to feel insulted. Everybody has opinions, everybody has their viewpoints. Let's just try to stick to the facts, shall we?
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