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Discussion in 'Faith and Religion' started by Bluenote, May 23, 2012.

  1. Bluenote

    Bluenote Monkey

    Ok JIM2...........

    Your basic premise was/is that a belief in " God " , in specific Christendom is a required component of " Morality"......

    This is an erroneous construct , provably so the World round. Now please provide a basis of proof for this without the red herrings and obfuscation you indulged in within the prior thread.

    There were further " talking points " that I tossed out , feel free to address them as you wish to.
  2. larryinalabama

    larryinalabama Monkey++

    The 10 Commandments in the Bible which came directly from GOD is a good start.

    If you dont believe in a devine creator, what possibly could you believe in. Did somehow humans evolve from a frog and somehow learn the difference between right and wrong?
  3. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    It didn't all start with the decalogue

    ="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_China#Xia_Dynasty_.28c._2100_-_c._1600_BC.29"]History of China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/URL]="http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_and_by_whom_was_the_Book_of_Exodus_written"]When and by whom was the Book of Exodus written[/URL]="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuteronomistic_history#Deuteronomistic_works"]Deuteronomist - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/URL]="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality"]Morality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/URL]
    TwoCrows and tulianr like this.
  4. RightHand

    RightHand Pioneer in a New World Moderator Founding Member

    It's certainly not my place to question the source of any individual's moral beliefs but what is morality, what are ethics. what are mores? My beliefs are valid to me and me alone. This is the way I have chosen to live my life.

    There is a social morality, the standards established by the society in which we choose to live, but I believe there is also a code of personal morals that we each choose as the guiding principles of our lives. The personal ones may be either more stringent or less stringent than the social morals but we choose to live them deliberately.

    I think of it this way; if I disregard the social morals, I may or may not feel remorse but if I disregard my personal morals, that face that looks back at me in the mirror each morning will be a stranger and I will be diminished in my own eyes.

    Our personal ethics are an extension of our personal morals but living ethically is sometimes more difficult than living morally. Human being make excuses for lapses in ethics but grieve for lapses in their personal moral code.

    To a Hindu, killing a cow is immoral but to a protestant, it may represent nothing more than steak night at the local bar and grill.

    In the Trobrian Islands, for centuries the bodies of the male dead were buried until the flesh had rotten from the bone at which time, the bones were dug from the ground so the widow could chew them and be released from mourning. Was this moral?

    In some parts of the world, honor killings are not only moral but required to maintain the high moral standard of the family and community.

    Some culture adhere to the belief that they are honoring their God by taking multiple wives while others hold that only a male can head a family or own property.

    The examples of social morals is endless and can only be judged within the culture in which they exist. While I find female mutilation morally reprehensible, there are those who believe their God demands that their women be "pure" and non-sexual while some male babies are circumsized in the name of biblical dictates.

    My moral code demands that I behave ethically, live honorably in the world, and deal honestly with others. I don't believe that code is God centered but self centered. It works for me - it is my personal code and I accept that it may differ from yours.
    BTPost, Yard Dart, TwoCrows and 9 others like this.
  5. larryinalabama

    larryinalabama Monkey++

    RH sounds like anything goes with you.
  6. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    morality/learning right and wrong is a taught mannerism, watch any kid with "Mine, Mine, Mine" mentality until they are taught to share. As we grow older and begin to understand interactions between people, the way it works, then our own system of morality develops. Some of us are taught this with a wrathful deity wielding the whip and others are taught this with a loving deity teaching by parable and example and others learn this with absolutely no mention of gods.
    As far as anything goes, larry, Ms RH is probably the most moral and upstanding person that I know and she has never mentioned divine guidance, intervention, retribution, or boo I'm god and wesayso. In fact, most people that I am in contact with that accredit a deity with their standards, somehow believe that divine provenance forgives them for basically being an asshole.
    TwoCrows, ditch witch, ghrit and 2 others like this.
  7. mysterymet

    mysterymet Monkey+++

    ain't that the truth...
  8. RightHand

    RightHand Pioneer in a New World Moderator Founding Member

    The respect of those for whom I have respect is what matters when I review my life. Thank you Sea.
  9. ColtCarbine

    ColtCarbine Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Why everybody knows that we evolved from Cro-magnon's or did you miss that part of human history. Take a look around some have yet to completely evolve. [monkeyeating]
    Careful with your words towards RH.
    chelloveck likes this.
  10. larryinalabama

    larryinalabama Monkey++

    Umm so I think eating your husband bones is wrong, and I havent evolved into a homosexual and prefer my children dont eighter,,,,,,,,,,and I BELIEVE IN GOD..........makes me a asshole,,,, so I guess im a asshole in some peoples eyes.

    Its all cool to claim batman was a fag,,. which is very offending ,,,,,,,,,,but to mention "GOD" is evil.

    None the less Im still tring to learn where do atheaists get their "values" from?
    jim2 likes this.
  11. RightHand

    RightHand Pioneer in a New World Moderator Founding Member

    why do you presume that just because a person feels their personal moral code is external to a belief in God that there is no belief in God?
    ColtCarbine likes this.
  12. larryinalabama

    larryinalabama Monkey++

    That question confuses me. If you do believe in God is it acceptable to write your own moral code?
    jim2 likes this.
  13. RightHand

    RightHand Pioneer in a New World Moderator Founding Member

    I choose to live deliberately. Whether I believe in a God or not is irrelevant in the context of morals, as I view them. A person can be dragged kicking and screaming to a moral stance but that doesn't make their moral code any better than mine. I don't choose to live my life in fear of retribution.
    chelloveck likes this.
  14. larryinalabama

    larryinalabama Monkey++

    I guess my originial queston is unanswerable, where do "morals" come from, are they invention of man? do they come from God?
  15. RightHand

    RightHand Pioneer in a New World Moderator Founding Member

    My personal moral code comes from my own humanity
  16. Bluenote

    Bluenote Monkey

    Uh HUH. So you too subscribe to the theory that a belief in God is required for " moral " behavior?

    And of course it's pure H O G W A S H , provably so by countless humans throughout history.
  17. larryinalabama

    larryinalabama Monkey++

    So if theres no such thing as god and superman is gay..........where does morality come from????
    jim2 likes this.
  18. Bluenote

    Bluenote Monkey

    Ah yes , the typical refuge of the religious when cornered on this issue , i.e " since you don't believe in God you'll fall for anything".

    SHOW ME something , something NEW. Not the same old trite and tedious postulations of a smug and snide nature.

    Said statements are in direct opposition to the basic tenets of the Bible...as I stated to Jim2.

    " Judge not lest ye be judged."

    " Remove the log from thine own eye brother , prior worrying about the mote in another's... "

    And also as stated in the other thread. I **KNOW** the territory , I was born into aberrant Christianity , I am a product/victim of the system and in the end living proof that the modern implementations of Christianity can and will at times produce A T H I E S T S.

    Same question as Jim2 , do you consider Ted Haggard to be " moral"? Swaggart? Harold Camping? Joyce Meyer ?

    Hey hows about Mo Berg , Vernon Howell ( Koresh) , Michael Travesser/Bent?

    Now come up with something of *clear evidence* that morality is connected to a belief in YOUR Deity , or I'm ging to start tearing Institutional Religion apart block by block and denomination by denomination until this thread is rife with examples of the unethical behavior and immoral actions of not only Christian *individuals* but of entire Denominations and their power structures.

    And YEAH I did just group Joyce Meyer with SCUM , along with the rest of the Seed Faith " Send me YO money" clowns such as Rod Parsley and going back to the LongCon operator known as Oral Roberts.

    In addition since I've seen it come up elsewhere here , mayhap someone could explain just when the Mosaic Laws became applicable to Gentiles?

    Course that leaves the sticky problem of The Covenants for you doesn't it? Keeping in mind that the Old Covenant was rescinded in bringing forth the New Covenant.

    The implementations of Christianity current to modern America are a system of *control* and perpetuation of the Institution ( denomination) they are no longer about bringing Man close to God.
    TwoCrows likes this.
  19. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    Upbringing from before time began. It ain't complicated and doesn't require scriptural analysis. Morality pre-existed Genesis.
  20. Bluenote

    Bluenote Monkey

    And as expected on down into juvenilia and snotty rhetoric. Morality comes from an individual moral code , which quite likely goes all the way back through mans EVOLUTION to the first loose knit banding together as tribes.

    And if I were you , I wouldn't try to provoke me on this subject , you're in WAY over your head as it is.

    In the end you're no different than a snotty Muslim saying the same things with a minor substitution of characters. You ARE aware that many of the same folks/characters appear in the Quoran aren't you?

    As regards the Mosaic/Levitcal Laws , you have read Josephus and his prophetic words on where blind allegiance and adherence to " The Law" will end up haven't you?

    See Larry , you've made a mistake , *I* am not your average non-Christian , I came from aberrant Southern Christianity , was born into it and educated partially within it's auspices , I *know* your arguements from most *every* available angle . If you doubt this , well then feel froggy JUMP , but I seriously doubt you'll accomplish much when I've flat just dusted quite a few of the Christian " Big Names" in open debate , includeing the moneygrubbing Hypocrite known as Joyce Meyers.

    Hey wanna do something fun? We can trace W.C.I , Butler/Hale and all that hate right back to it's Pentecostal roots. Right through Swift , that'd be fun now wouldn't it?

    Or Christians could perhaps just remember the most CENTRAL tenet of the Book they CLAIM to follow and embrace said concept.

    That being............" Treat thy fellow man as you would like to be treated."........

    But hey *everyone* likes to be told that they have no " moral code" , and to be treated as ' lesser' and talked down to , and that's your " right" as a Christian 'eh Larry?

    Guess what? You won't do it to me , I don't submit , not to the govt and not to YOU based on your worship of a * system of control *.

    And don't dispute that last , unless of course you wish to bore folks with details of Doctrine as applied to the individual Believer's Life across a wide variety of denominations.
    TwoCrows likes this.
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