Multiple choice....You choose!

Discussion in 'Tin Foil Hat Lounge' started by dragonfly, Dec 1, 2011.

  1. dragonfly

    dragonfly Monkey+++

    Well due and owing to the current events and incidents in the world,
    I thought it would be appropriate to get some thoughts on this....
    What do you feel or think, we may be headiing for/into?

    1) World War III?
    2) Economic collapse of the U.S. ( alone)?
    3) Economic collapse of the European Union?
    4) Total ( Global) economic collapse?
    5) "Conventional war", involving: Iran, Russia, Syria, Israel, UK, U.S.,
    and a "host" of others?
    6) All of the above, "triggered" by any one of the others?

    From the news I get, ( and I am limiting myself!) It looks to me as if there will be an "incident or an event", that will cause a domino type of effect, leading to "conflict's", that eventually will end in a World War.
    It's NOT just about greed/money, power/lust for power, today, it's about water, food and resources ( see: oil and gas).
    I feel it is now inevitable that the powers that be, will have NO other options but to try to seize control of as much area (lands) that they can in order to have the resources they feel they will need going forward....
    Of course, there's NEVER gong to be enough of anything, as the world population contiunes to grow, exponentially....Forgetting for the moment, about religions and politics.....
    Is there an answer?
    Will we survive the times ahead for the world?
    Or, are we "doomed", by our own devices?
  2. Falcon15

    Falcon15 Falco Peregrinus

    6 but not necessarily in the order given. More like a cascading domino effect.

    My order would be at this time :
    3) Economic collapse of the European Union
    2) Economic collapse of the U.S.
    4) Total (Global) economic collapse
    5) Conventional war", involving: Iran, Russia, Syria, Israel, UK, U.S.,
    and a "host" of others
    1) WW III

    Now, 4/5 in my list could be interchangeable, and the last item WWIII is very conditional. However when it all goes to hell, I think that is the sequence of events based on the global financial/political situation as of today.
  3. TXKajun

    TXKajun Monkey+++

    And from the looks of what's happening in Europe and with the Euro, Falcon's list may be more prophetic in the short run. Heard Europe's got ten days to get it together, or collapse of Euro and EuroZone is gonna be a done deal.

    Scary times!

    dragonfly likes this.
  4. dragonfly

    dragonfly Monkey+++

    The BEST and worst that could happen, is the dissolution of the euro as it extends into 17 countries economies...when one takes a "hit", they all feel it!
    The ramifications of taking this step is well beyond my economic senses! I can only imagine the results would be somewhat catastrophic, especially for Italy, Greece, Spain, Portugal, et al......I can only haphazardly take "uneducated" guesses at it...
    Falcon15 likes this.
  5. beast

    beast backwoodsman

    you left off number 7... which will come after all the rest have run their course
    every man or woman for themselves
    chaos in the streets of the world
    total human collapse back to cannibalism where we wind up with small warlords claiming tiny little kingdoms
    dragonfly and Falcon15 like this.
  6. weegrannymush

    weegrannymush Monkey+

    Falcon, I think your list seems very apt. I suppose the vast majority of the world is "living in hope" that "they" (meaning the powers-that-be) will somehow deliver the goods and get the world out of this mess. But it ain't going to happen. Oh, there may be ups and downs along the way and every now and then some semblance of apparent recovery but in the long run, TWAWKI is on its way out. We all know this in our hearts, which is why we are Prepping (as far as we are able) and why we are discussing this on our favourite site. And I say, like Tiny Tim, God Bless Us, Every One. And may God help us all. It is going to be worse than anything we can ever imagine.
    dragonfly and Falcon15 like this.
  7. Gafarmboy

    Gafarmboy Monkey+++

    Pure Optimism

    Beast, you are quite the optimist. Where as the End of the World may be at hand, I think America (or what's left of it) will quickly become a massive police state of the likes the world has never known. Even Stalin and Mao would be impressed. The use of technology as a type of Over Watch Uber Big brother will be total. The greater majority (90%) of people will go along to get along (aka survive) just so they can eat and continue on with some pretense of a semi-normal life. These so-called citizens will continue to see their lives become grimmer and grimmer until seeing people dying in the streets will by another NORMAL occurrence. Then you will see the total break down of society and return to the most vicious becoming the New Kings of the land. Welcome to the new world of serfdom.

    As my paternal grand father was fond of saying.
    "It is better to live one day as a lion, than a 1000 years as a sheep"

    What ever comes, it will be of an ill tiding for all of us here on this site. WE ARE the NEW Enemy. Lines will be crossed, lives will be lost and in a thousand years we will have lived and died without any consequence. Or .....

    If you can not defend what you own, will not own it long..
    God bless the REPUBLIC
  8. larryinalabama

    larryinalabama Monkey++

    The way I see it Iran will take over the Middle East and shut off the oil. China will realize thet US government bonds are soon to become worthless and stop buying them. People realize they bought over inflated houses and will walk away from them on a far grander scale than whats currently happening. Social Security and other Government welfare programs will no longer be reailble. Looks like # 6 has as good as chance as any.
  9. VisuTrac

    VisuTrac Ваша мать носит военные ботинки Site Supporter+++

    I'm going to say 5 as in today vote on S1867 some [AH] put in a last minute amendment to tighten the screws on iranian oil monies by stating that any global bank that works with Iran can not do business in the US.

    So ...

    in order that my magic 8 ball predicts

    5,3,2,4,1 AKA 6

    And you only thought the National Defense Apporpiations act was just about money for jets. Ok that was in there to. Wez gonna sell 65 to taiwan, wonder who that will piss off.

    S1867 is an evil piece of legislation that if signed by BHO will bump start alot of things.
    Sapper John, dragonfly and Falcon15 like this.
  10. beast

    beast backwoodsman

    with the votes it got this time around i imagine obutthead wont need to sign it
    congress will just bypass him
    been a whole lot of bypassing things goin on lately
    dragonfly and Falcon15 like this.
  11. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    No way he will pass up the opportunity to take credit. He'll sign.
    dragonfly and Falcon15 like this.
  12. limpingbear

    limpingbear future cancer survivor....

    i heard on the radio today (i think it was Hannity) that the EU bankers have a deal with the FED reserve to help float the EURO. something to the tune of a couple hundered billion or so on tap to help prop it up. We cant even keep our own s**t staight and we are helping the EU.....WTF?
    dragonfly likes this.
  13. dragonfly

    dragonfly Monkey+++

    It's ONLY money...."They" have been printing a lot of it lately, kinda surprised you can still find Monopoly games today though....That money might just pass for fiat after all!
    Each day we take another "hit" as it were....Soon no one will be safe from the tryanny...I hate to say this ( I really do) But I feel war is the ultimate solution. Now knowing society it won't take much to push some over the edge, (veterans?) and it will simply continue unchecked and domino out of control, then a civil war is more than likely...Now here's where it gets kinda fuzzy for me...Will it be US against them? or will it be us against us? Eventually it all comes down to the same equation I suppose. No one will be left unscathed. Once the shooting starts, it won't end until the ammo runs out. It may well be the gov't (tptb) that pushes the citizens to react, then take drastic and immediate steps to quell any and all resistance.... then the real FUN begins. All hades is going to break loose.
    With the current mindset of the goobers, it's all but set in concrete..I fear the gov't and they fear us...That's a disaster in the making. They won't give up so easily as they know a rope and gallows will be awaiting them. For the rest of us peons, well , we are fighting for our lives, and our way of life. Those that are opposing the constitutional laws, know where they stand, they cannot afford to lose. They have all of the goobers on their side, and soon will have the military as their own personal watchdogs...It could end in a coup. I doubt it though. Too many have far too much to lose and the power they wield is as dangerous as their mindset. There is a bright side ( God, I hate myself at times!) They are tantamount to a large and cumbersome body, fixed pretty much with no where to run or hide...Whereas "we" are flexible and are the proverbial "guerrila's". Those in power need to fear the rest of the nation, because without you and I, and so many many others, they have food, no water, no fuels, and no one to wash their cars, do their laundry and babysit their brats...or in a lot of cases, even work in their fields and factories!
    It's coming down the pike....I wish I knew what to expect, will it be a economic meltdown,? Possibly Europe first, then the U.S.?..or ,will it be triggered by Iran and/or Israel? Maybe even Syria and the Russians...The whole world it seems, is coming apart at the seams....
    Your guess is probably better than mine at this point. Whatever is going to happen, is rapidly approaching, or why else would Sen. McCain even DARE to pass the bill they put forth? It's pure insanity, or are tptb really that scared of it's own citizens now? I think that's the only realistic answer...they are running scared now because they realize they have spent this country into a hell from which none can escape...All that is left is to corral us and keep us under their thumbs as their PROPERTY and slaves...What other alternatives do they have? They might run, but where can they go? Being American today is a sin...they have doomed themseleves as well as the rest of us.
    They will see that all their money, power, corruption, and greed will have come to naught.
    No escape. Trapped like rats on a sinking ship, soon they will attack each other and OFFER some of their own up, as fall guys. ( burnt offerings anyone?) Blame each other, then maybe even take it to the next level. Of that, I have NO doubts. Martial law will actually be somewhat of a relief, keeping the nasties contained to a degree...If some thought that the "occupy wall streeters " were a messy bunch, just wait! It's going to a freaking disaster...riots in the streets when there's no money left, no welfare or social security checks..Oh sure they can print more money and checks and make believe everything is hunky dorey, but even houses of cards eventually collapse. It's coming, it's gaining momentum, and there is no place on this earth to avoid the wholesale disaster. I wish I could say I was having a bad dream....I'd rather wake up back in the Nam!
    What we are about to witness is what I was warned about long long ago, that I'd someday see in my lifetime...and I don't want to see it.
    Either or, there will be a war of such a magnitude and destruction that I truly fear that this country may never again rise from it's own ashes...Who will do it, it no longer seems to even matter, and it has yet to happen....I think it was inevitable...Politics and greed seem to be the key factors in bringing down all democracies...
    We have that already and in quintuplets! Do I see a bright side...? Well people won't be forced out of their homes the bankers will all have gone into hiding! No bill collectors to speak of....But then there's a direct equal and opposite more money= no more food, nothing! Can you ( dare you) imagine a world like that? Even gold or silver will be near times where only food, gasoline, or even wood to burn, are now KING! ( reminds me to get more books!)
    Take the very worst you can possibly imagine of humanity becoming, and multiply that by infinity...
    I want so badly to be wrong....I want to wake up from this and start all over...I don't want to be a part of this nightmare, but, I was not given that choice....Sorry my friends,...perhaps, someday we will meet...In a better place and a much better environment...God Willing!
    Or, are we are just screwed!?
    ( I wanted to use the quote from Mel Brook's movie: "Blazing Saddles"
    but I felt that the wording was a tad bit inappropriate!) Need a bit of levity here, from time to time....
    Falcon15 and larryinalabama like this.
  14. larryinalabama

    larryinalabama Monkey++

    Economic collepse seems to be on the herizon, and is already here for many.

    True civil war will come later, when the young people get taxed out of the lifestyle they grew up in to pay for this mess.
    Falcon15 likes this.
  15. Falcon15

    Falcon15 Falco Peregrinus

    LMAO I know EXACTLY what quote you are thinking of...
  16. DKR

    DKR Raconteur of the first stripe

    Sorry for the change in formatting, I can't fix it....

    I'll toss in my 2c. as an amateur historian.

    The closest to what we see today, at least in recent history is the beginnings of the Great Depression.

    Conventional history tells use there were 5 well defined triggers that started the Great Depression.

    1) Stock Market Crash of 1929

    2) Bank Failures

    3) Reduction in Purchasing Across the Board

    4) American Economic Policy with Europe (Specifically Smoot-Hawley)

    5) Drought Conditions (The Dust Bowl of recent fame)

    Oddly - I don't buy into these. Let's look closer, with some help from the internet.

    1) Total debt to GDP levels in the U.S. reached a high of just under 300% by the time of the Depression. This level of debt was not exceeded again until near the end of the 20th century. This situation was noted as a causative factor as early as 1934. That debt was personal and gov't by the way. So - a debt burden.

    2) Furthermore, (source) says that the volume of new capital issues increased at a 7.7% compounded annual rate from 1922-29 at a time when the Standard Statistics Co.'s index of 60 high grade bonds yielded from 4.98% in 1923 to 4.47% in 1927. A credit bubble.

    3) There was also a real estate and housing bubble in the 1920s, especially in Florida, which burst in 1925. Alvin Hansen stated that housing construction during the 1920s decade exceeded population growth by 25%. Sound familiar? Housing bubble aided by the easy credit bubble.

    The real estate bubble burst, forcing banking houses to make margin calls - like real estate, too much stock was purchased in margin. That managed to cumulate in bank runs during (the smart ones) shortly after (not so smart folks) the market crash.

    4) Deflation and a credit crunch, business couldn't get capital to operate and the population quit buying. The spiral begins.

    A slightly different version has
    1. Debt liquidation and distress selling (real estate and stock)
    2. Contraction of the money supply as bank loans are paid off (no credit)
    3. A fall in the level of asset prices (housing nobody wants or can afford)
    4. A still greater fall in the net worths of business, precipitating bankruptcies
    5. A fall in profits
    6. A reduction in output, in trade and in employment.
    7. Pessimism and loss of confidence
    8. Hoarding of money (We have seen this for the last couple of years, at least since 2009)
    9. A fall in nominal interest rates and a rise in deflation adjusted interest rates. (Housing loans at 3% anyone)

    Is this starting to sound familiar? But wait, it gets better -

    When Hoover was elected to president in 1928, he was a long-standing critic of free markets and small government. He had presided over "reconstruction" in Europe after WWI, the equivalent of "stimulus spending" in Keynesian terms. Rather than being "do-nothing", his administration immediately began expanding government spending, taxes, and regulation. In fact, during his term Federal spending was effectively doubled. NOW that really sounds familiar - yes?

    We lived through the Great Depression with a population of about 122 Million. There have been significant demographic and racial shifts in represented % of population since then. Currently the US population is about 311 million.

    For specifics see US Population in the 1930 Census by Race.

    I don't see a civil war or even warfare - I do see a repeat of the "urban unrest" as seen in the 60s as riots in Detroit and LA. That could be very bad indeed, this time around.

    I'm pretty hopeful, the entitlement folks will be pissed, and everyone will lose their shirt or at least part of it. The real losers will be the non-working elderly, those totally dependant (by choice or not) on the FedGov/State for their day to day bread and folks who were (or are now) very heavily in debt. Oh, and anyone living in a major urban center - those riots will be quite the show.

    "Winners" and I use that term very loosely. Folks with little or no debt. Folks who already own their home (but the taxman is still a threat) and folks that have readily marketable skills and the tools needed to use those skills.

    Crime will likely climb, but maybe not as much as many assume - outside of the urban areas.

    So, if you are prepared, maybe not so bad. I once asked my daddy - "How did you and gramps survive the Great Depression?"

    Answer - "We chose not to participate." Which is a story unto itself. If there is enough interest, I'll share some of it.

    Christmas is coming, joy unto you and yours.
    Gafarmboy and larryinalabama like this.
  17. VisuTrac

    VisuTrac Ваша мать носит военные ботинки Site Supporter+++

    Can not compare this depression with the last one big difference

    1920's 30% of workforce (estimate) were working on farms.

    Today what, maybe 1.5 percent and those are massive farms that require huge inputs of fuel, fertilizer(created from natural gas) and water (pumped by diesel)

    Then we were a society of doing and making.
    Now we are a thinking/non-thinking

    Then, there was a pantry, root cellar, spring box where could be stored enough food to make it from harvest to harvest (a year) without electricity.

    Today, there is the grocery store where we go (daily, weekly) to pick up food that has travelled 1500 miles and is either not ripe or about to spoil before we can serve it.

    We have 3 days of food in the stores.

    Want to see mass panic/riot/death. just wait 6 days in a large urban area when the food runs out and a lot of the population has not fled to areas where there is food and water.
  18. Falcon15

    Falcon15 Falco Peregrinus

    Lets put down an even more thought provoking statistic:
    In the years leading up to the Great Depression, fully 90% of Americans were self sufficient and could grow and harvest adequate food for sustaining themselves and their families. This number includes the 27% of the populace that were "farmers". Only 10% of the populace all of which lived in urban areas were not self sufficient.

    Today, perhaps 1% is self sufficient - completely self reliant upon what they produce to feed themselves and their family. 99%+ of Americans are completely dependent upon others to feed them.

    The die off is going to be massive.

    Now lets talk about electricity. Less than 30 years prior to my birth, electricity was not even commonly available in all areas of the nation. My grandparents were raised and lived a good portion of their lives without electric power. My great grandparents lived without it for their entire existence. So did every other ancestor of mine back to Adam and Eve.

    The skills we, the modern Americans, have sacrificed in the name of "labor savings", creature comforts, entertainment, and convenience, have enslaved us all to the grid.

    If you are "off grid", unless you are living without power 100%, you have only substituted one supplier - municipal power - for another - yourself. You are truly not self sufficient unless and until you, me, and everyone else can live without electricity completely for any extended length of time.

    My family and I are currently making plans to cut the electrical umbilical cord and go for it. If anyone cares there is an excellent book I have been reading that deals specifically with just this subject...true independence. TRUE off grid. Message me if you are interested. Otherwise, one day I'll be here, the next...poof.
  19. VisuTrac

    VisuTrac Ваша мать носит военные ботинки Site Supporter+++

  20. Falcon15

    Falcon15 Falco Peregrinus

    My fellow Monkeys (heck of a way to open eh?),

    Humanity has existed for millennium. We existed without electricity, gasoline, petroleum products, and to some extent external threat over our existence. Sure, there has been slavery and oppression in the world. In every case until the advent of electrical power, you could see your oppressors with your own eyes. You could feel the chains on your wrists. You were able to identify those people as your masters.

    I am not a Luddite. I am not advocating destroying anything, I am trying to provoke some thought here. You, every one of you, including me, are slaves to electricity. Whether you generate your own power using generators, solar panels, water power, or draw from the grid, the majority of us could not live without electricity.

    Living is more than the internet, a cell phone, air conditioning, or washing machines. It is more than refrigeration, hair driers, DVD players, and coffee makers. Living is so much more than these things, and we all fail at truly living, especially me.

    In answer to your question, Visu, when they raise the electrical rates, your enslavement is complete. At that point every one of the people out there on the grid, even just off the grid, but generating their own power for use, will be caught in the web inextricably. You see, when electricity is uber expensive, what do you think that does to the pricing of things like consumer goods, food, electronics, and clothing? Retail outlets will have to raise prices accordingly, as will manufactures of raw materials, manufacturing goods, and finished goods. Anyone left needing these items is done for.

    True freedom is eschewing the very things that enslave you. Cast out the devices that keep you in your 72 degree womb. Comfortable in your air conditioned home, on the internet, watching your favorite movies, or even washing your clothes in a machine.

    To each his own. I know my course from here forward. I am casting off my shackles. I am done.
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