My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Sit in

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Blackjack, Dec 31, 2007.


  1. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    Background:

    On the other forum I belong too (not survival, prep, gun related), A guy from England (We'll call Brit #1) posts a thread about so many people getting attacked with knives recently in England.

    So I couldn't help but jump in and feel around a little about everyones attitude on gun rights.

    I'm posting the meaty parts here for you to eavesdrop on. I always find it interesting if not scary what other people think. The discussion is still very much going, so I'll update it as new posts are made.

    Characters are color coded for your easy reference. :)
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    Brit #1:
    That's 28 stabbings in London and the year isn't even out, Most of the victims seem to have emanated from the black community

    There is something wrong with certain communities in London, esp. if certain element's feel the need to resort to using knives/guns etc to protect themselves or prove how big they are...Looks like the recent change in law raising the time servied for being caught in possession of offensive weapons to 4 years just isn't having the desired result (i.e serving as a deterent)

    Whilst it is encouraging at someone is already in custody and being questioned over the incident...It just baffles me as to why certain communities can't learn to live together and stamp out this 'knife/gun' culture from within their community...Yet these are the same communities that constantly accuse the police of racism, this that and the other



    Blackjack:
    It's not a "knife/gun" problem, it's a criminal problem. It's too bad you're government took away the victims rights to adequately protect themselves.

    You can't keep the criminals from getting weapons, you can only stop the law abiding from doing so.

    Brit #1
    Slightly wrong there Blackjack...All that's happened is that the government have clarified certain elements of that part of english law


    Blackjack:
    Then I apologize, I have been misled. I thought it was illegal in England to carry a firearm. No?

    Brit #2
    In England, its illegal to keep ANY object for use as a weapon for pre-meditated self defence.


    Therefore if you keep a baseball bat beside your bed and use it against a robber, you will likely end up on a charge..... if you keep a duster and a tin of furniture polish next to the bat, and you say you were polishing the bat when the robber appeared, the use of the baseball bat was not pre-meditated and you wont go to jail.

    "I was cleaning my gun and this guy appeared in my house!" is a valid defence

    "This guy came in my house so I loaded my gun and gave him a full magazine in the face" isnt a valid defence.


    Brit #1
    Under English law you have a 'right; to defending yourself using 'reasonable force'...It is only illegal to carry unregistered guns/firearms in the UK, but we don't have a 'right' to bear arms (if that's what you mean)


    Blackjack
    So then I was right, and I'll restate......

    <!--quotec-->It's too bad you're government took away the victims rights to adequately protect themselves.
    <!--QuoteEnd-->
    <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Can't use "pre-meditated" defense? WTF is that! You can't plan to defend yourself?

    And exactly what is "reasonable force" when it comes to defending your life?

    The absolute idiocy of this bullshit just amazes me, but the US is headed there as well with this new trend toward fascism that we're under. Wouldn't want the populace able to defend itself.

    Brit #2
    You can plan to defend yourself, but you cant plan to use a weapon to defend yourself. Self Defence as a reason for obtaining a firearm certificate waas specifcially removed quite a while ago, probably the 1968 firearms act but im not sure.

    Reasonable force = pay day for lawyers.

    Its basically up to the court decide if, based on the circumstances, the force used is reasonable. Obviously thats an absolute minefield of an argument.

    The right can extend as far as lethal force, if the circumstances warranted it.


    Brit #3
    the availability of "adequate self-protection" (to paraphrase Blackjack) does not appear to have resulted in low homicide rates in the US.

    And few people use guns to slice their Thanksgiving turkeys.


    Blackjack
    Actually, in areas that allow concealed carry of handguns, not only the murder rate, but all violent crime, including rape, and property crime drops.

    I'm not sure why people have trouble understanding that criminals prefer unarmed victims. Nearly all of the "mass shootings" we have are in "gun-free zones".

    And as far as people not being able to "plan" on using a defense weapon..... what about people unable to defend themselves physically? There are many millions of disabled, elderly, and physicaly feeble.


    Brit #4
    As usual, the gun nuts are missing the point.

    1. The UK's gun laws (as those in many other countries) were introduced to make mass killings harder following our own tragedies. The US still has those, does it not? It was never intended to prevent people owning legally licensed and legally available firearms (my stepdaughter's uncle went shooting rabbits today, for instance).

    2. The reason that the UK Government has, as yet, decided not to allow people to shoot burglars unless the homeowner believes himself to be at imminent risk is that it could lead to more burglars being armed to protect themselves when they enter someone's house. At the moment, 99.999% of burglars enter a house or business premises unarmed. Over here, you can adequately protect your home with two simple things ... an alarm and a loud dog or two. It's bizarre, I know ... alarms are not as macho as guns, and dogs need a bit more maintenance. You'd be surprised at just how few burglaries there are on a street with a load of big shouty dogs, even in an area reminiscent of Beirut in the 80's - like our street! I'd like to see someone try and break in to next door's house without losing a leg to a couple of Rottweillers.

    Anyway, a case in point is that of Tony Martin. The burglars were indeed unarmed. In the US, you might justifiably feel that you were at risk because of how much easier it is to get a gun over there. Over here, Tony Martin should have known that the risk of being shot by a burglar was negligible and that a warning shot from him would have sufficed. There is a fine line between defending yourself and murder. You can only claim to have defended yourself if you can show that you had reasonable cause to believe that you were at serious risk of injury or death if you had not acted as you did.

    3. You are correct. You can't stop criminals from getting hold of guns. But what's interesting is that they tend to use them in their own form of natural selection - they use them on each other and by and large leave the rest of us alone. A burglar in the UK is more interested in getting someone's property and selling it on for money with the least fuss and the least hassle. Even the dumbest of burglars knows that taking a handgun with him is more trouble than it's worth in the long run.


    Floridian
    How does a topic about a stabbing devolve into a gun gontrol debate?

    Because people who lean a certain way politically can't think rationally and try (ineffectively) to compare gun violence to knife violence. What they conveniently forget is that knives have a purpose other than murder. Guns do not. If people would get their political heads out of their asses they'd see that.
    You have to be a complete idiot to compare knife violence to gun violence.
    <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Blackjack
    It was about allowing citizenry to arm themselves for defense. My head is out of my ass, but a statement like "Guns have no purpose other than murder" is about as far out of touch with reality as can be. I've been a gun owner for over 30 years, used them regularly, and never murdered anyone.

    Hey, I guess I'm just that whacko that values liberty. I must be crazy, eh?

    Floridian
    Whacko? Possible.
    Values liberty? if you base liberty on being a gun owner then no, absolutely not. There's nothing in our laws that allow you to own a gun, unless...
    1) You are part of a well-regulated militia or,
    2) Agree with the manipulators of the 2nd amendment.

    If people didn't piss, whine, complain and molest the meaning of the 2nd amendment to their liking totally contrary to the true purpose, people would not need guns for self defense.

    But yeah I would agree you are crazy if you think having to own a gun is "liberty".


    Blackjack
    Webster's Online:

    Liberty:

    1: the quality or state of being free: a: the power to do as one pleases b: freedom from physical restraint c: freedom from arbitrary or despotic control d: the positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges e: the power of choice

    That's owning a gun, speaking your mind, writing what you wish, whatever...... yes liberty.


    Our Founding Fathers:

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    What part of "the people" don't you get? A militia is "the people", who, by the way, just got done overthrowing an opressive government. Why do you think they thought it was so important?

    "Well Regulated" isn't commonly used today as it was then, but in writings from G. Washington, T. Jefferson, A. Hamilton, all used it to mean a "well practiced, disciplined, effective" force.

    I should just bow out of this debate as it's obviously going nowhere, you've already called me crazy and an idiot for speaking up for our constitutional, legal, and moral right to bear arms.

    If you're interested in the truth on the second amendment, and not just regurgitating the stuff you've been fed, check out http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndmea.html for the meaning of the words.
     
  2. hartage

    hartage Monkey+++

    Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

    Wow, if that isn't just a blank check of absolute safety to any invader/robber/kidnapper I don't know what is. Hell they might as well just keep their stuff outside with a glass of milk and a plate of cookies for the burglers. So burglers don't have to even come in. Hell why not help them load their vehicle so they can get out of there faster ? Hell why not just deliver your stuff to the badguys to save them on gas ? Insane.
     
  3. Tracy

    Tracy Insatiably Curious Moderator Founding Member

    Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

    [pop]
     
  4. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

    Premeditated self defense? Oy.
     
  5. sniper-66

    sniper-66 Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

    I like the argument: If you don't own guns, then the burglars will come unarmed as they will feel safer! What a crock of shit
     
  6. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

    Interesting exchange and kudos for using such restraint, you "whacko".Can't believe you can't "plan to defend yourself". Yes ;we certainly want to rely on the good faith of burglars. pretty childish so the homeowner has no right to anything; not his property, not his life or the sanctity of his home??? Scumbag uber alles????

    "Wot about a pointed stick?"
     
  7. DesertDawg

    DesertDawg Monkey+++

    Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

    Last year, there was a United Nations report that, basically, said that a tourist was safer on the streets of New York City than in London.

    I'd like to add some more, but I need to go premeditate some safety and security things right now! I may have to place a can of gun oil and a rag next to where I keep my "evil" handgun at night....just so I can have a valid defense about cleaning my gun....in my sleep!

    Maybe we should send the Brits some signs to post in the front windows of their homes....the signs that read, "No guns in this home!"? THAT would make their burglars all comfy and contented!
     
  8. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

    My thoughts exactly. I love the reasoning that you have to have an alarm and a big dog. Then of course the robbers would sue you for your dog attacking them. What about the time it takes for the unarmed police to show up? What if you have a allergic reaction to dogs? These people are silly. It is amazing though how quick they all change their tune after they are robbed, raped, assaulted, etc. Self defense, it is a God given right.
     
  9. evilgijoe88

    evilgijoe88 Monkey+++

    Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

    and the guy from Florida doesnt consider going out to practice with firearms anything other than murder. damn i wish they would have told me while i was in the military. all those murders happening while we at the range and we just didnt even have a clue.[booze] some people are as set in their convictions as we are in ours, sadly enough they can state what they believe loudly enough to affect us all.
     
  10. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

    I wish I was better at arguing about this stuff, most of the time I feel flustered and "underpowered" in my debates with these idiots.







    It continues.......


    Brit #4
    Thank you. You've just made the point for us. Gun fanaticists will twist the 2nd amendment to their own liking. As you say, "well regulated" isn't commonly used today. And what did Washington, Jefferson and Hamilton describe? An ARMY.

    In any event, the second amendment does not give you a right to own a gun of any kind. If the government chooses, it can ban the sale and keeping of all guns but it cannot ban the sale and keeping of all weapons.



    Blackjack
    Is that actually a serious comment, you're not kidding?

    No, not an army..... an armed citizenry. Do you understand the historical context of our constitution? We, the armed citizenry, just violently overthrew our own opressive government. Why would we then say it's ok if just the governments army has firearms? That would be beyond ridiculous.

    The 2nd amendment has never been about the army, self defense, or hunting. It's always been about and armed citizenry retaining the ability to stand up to it's own government.

    The bill of rights is not a set of privileges given to us by our government, it's a set of rules and restrictions on the government as dictated by "we the people".

    Absolutely delusional.
     
  11. Jonas Parker

    Jonas Parker Hooligan

    Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

    Damn! Am I glad my great grandfather got out of Devonshire while the "gettin' was good"!

    We live in a small town in Texas and we haven't had a "successful" burglary of an occupied dwelling in town in the last 10 years. Two robbers had unsuccessful attempts, but never made it out alive.
     
  12. Seawolf1090

    Seawolf1090 Adventure Riding Monkey Founding Member

    Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

    Being a life-long Floridian (and gun owner), I am ashamed we have such nitwits as that "Floridian". He's about as brain-washed as a Liberal can be.
    As to the Brits . . . those that don't believe in self-defense shouldn't complain when they get "sheared".

    I recently read that their medical association is trying to get 'pointed kitchen knives' banned from private kitchens nationwide - it seems they can be used to hurt people! Wow, imagine that. [booze]
     
  13. hartage

    hartage Monkey+++

    Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

    Not easy supporting your point against a group eh ? But you are doing fine. You seem to supporting your point and poking holes in theirs.
     
  14. hartage

    hartage Monkey+++

    Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

    Well you can also drown in your own voimit. I wonder how long before vomiting is outlawed and is punishable by a fine ? Just insane, they seem to think everybody is as stupid and clumsy as they are.
     
  15. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

    Brit #4 said In any event, the second amendment does not give you a right to own a gun of any kind. If the government chooses, it can ban the sale and keeping of all guns but it cannot ban the sale and keeping of all weapons.

    And I wonder then, who gets to define "weapons" anyhow. In his case, I imagine it would be Parliament, here it is moot. Are there not regulations in Britain requiring martial arts experts to register their hands? If not, why not? It really does NOT take huge strength to kill with hands, it is just a matter of technique more than anything else, tho' strength doesn't hurt. So now Granny has training, so she is a registered "weapon" if you take that thesis far enough. If I take the bed knife off a paper cutter, or the blade off a lawn mower, I can kill with the greatest of ease, never fear. How about the fillet knife that most fishermen carry? Poor fishy, I guess.

    Pens and sharpened pencils must also be out. (No more notes in bottles, then. OH, SHIT!! Forgot, can't have bottles, because if you break one, you'll have a weapon in your hand!!) That leaves crayons, I suppose. 'Course, in this day and age, who needs any of that, we have all sorts of writing and drafting software, so we don't need them. (Nor straight edges for drafting, they typically have a metal edge.)

    No pointed sticks, either. With no knives, no way to sharpen them. Hm. No saws, either, so we can't even get the sticks.

    Plastic hose? Nah, can make nooses, or run it from the tail pipe to the victim's basement. Ye gods, no end I can see trying to name weapon useful stuff.

    It goes on. More to the point, what gives Brit #4 the right to interpret our Constitution, either in part or in the whole? Slap the bugger, and/or give us the URL and we'll lend a hand. Civilly, of course.
     
  16. Evenglischatiest

    Evenglischatiest Monkey+++

    Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

    In recent years, the ONLY violent crime that we see here more commonly than in the UK is murder. And there's a surprisingly good reason for that.

    Here, whenever a murder is SUSPECTED, that goes on the list. The majority of those end up being plea bargained down to manslaughter, or turn out to be accidental, or justified. Sometimes, the assumed victim turns up alive later. But all of those cases are initially added to the total. It's fairly rare for a prosecutor to take the time to correct such a mistake.

    In Britain, for something to be listed as a murder requires both a body, and a CONVICTION for premeditated murder. There has NEVER been an unsolved murder in Britain, because a death can't be ruled a murder until someone is convicted.

    Then there's that huge, blaring difference, that every one of us knows, but we aren't allowed to talk about. The white murder rate in this country isn't much different than the white murder rate in the UK. On his way out of office, Tony Blair finally grew the gonads to mention it.
    Yes, Britain's crime rate has increased along with their level of gun control. But those same years have seen the first major influx of immigrants since the Normans. Diversity is not a solution to strife. It's the leading CAUSE of it.



    Good luck, Blackjack.

    Unfortunately, I don't see much reason to believe these people can be argued with. The whole point of post-modernism seems to be to invalidate evidence, in deference to authority. As long as that concept continues to be pounded into children's heads in schools, Jeffersonian debate will remain largely useless.

    I once heard a comedian give advice that fits these discussions well. "Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you to his own level, then beat you down with experience."
     
  17. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

    I just can't help myself sometimes..... and now I'm starting to smell the faint odor of victory :)


    The latest installment:
    I have a new supporter and the Floridian returns!
    -----------------------------------------------



    New Supporter
    AMEN!! Preach the truth my friend!
    You have made this Jeffersonian proud and I thank you for your common sense.


    Floridian
    I'm sure glad people like yourself have guns to protect me if our government decides to oppress us. Otherwise I would have though it's just a macho phallic thing.


    Blackjack
    You're welcome, from all the gun owning, responsible citizens who make your life safer (the criminals don't know who among us is armed). Unless of course you hold the courage of your convictions and will place a sign on your door clearly stating that there are no firearms in your home, but then, you wouldn't want criminals to know that, would you?

    It's funny how many people share your views, only to end up being a victim, and then become gun owners themselves. Nobody has a responsibility to protect you..... not your government, not the cops, not anyone but you. I hope that fate spares you from that wake-up call.

    .... and now blaming it on a "macho phallic thing" when the logic of your arguments fall apart?
     
  18. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

    Floridian
    I'm sure glad people like yourself have guns to protect me if our government decides to oppress us. Otherwise I would have though it's just a macho phallic thing.

    Somehow, the musty smell of sarcasm wafts about. Watch that guy. taser1 If he's a true Floridian vs. phony lib, he already knows that he can, and has chosen not to own/carry.
     
  19. hartage

    hartage Monkey+++

    Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

    You could point out that guns are tools that can be used against more than just government opression. Someone stealing from you is opressing or otherwise imposing economic hardship. Political opression is not the only form of opression.
     
  20. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

    And now we have "Pissed Off Brit" joining in on our side :)


    Pissed Off Brit
    Just to add an alternative British view to this gun discussion. Im now firmly of the opinion that id rather be armed. Armed to the teeth in fact.

    But then Im based in Kensington, Liverpool, one of the most deprived areas of Europe (note - certainly not Kensignton London!)

    And I challenge any MP, or any sane man or woman for that matter, to either live in, or work in Kensington, Liverpool, and not feel the need to arm themselves.

    During a 1 month period during 2007, there were 3 murders within a 1 mile radius of my front door. One was a postcode gangland kiling, one a randon kebab shop killing, and finally an 11 year was shot dead by a teenager.

    I dont give a shit about the 2nd amendment, or the general public perception in the UK - the general public perception is biased towards the silent-majority middle england who think its their right to dictate what people who are struggling should and shouldnt do. Which is crap, frankly.

    Any Brit who complains about weapons(inc guns) as self-defence should be forced to spend 1 year living on the Boot Estate before they are allowed to voice their opinions.

    Westminster tells me to not arm myself??? Yeah, like they are going to protect me from a child with an AK-47. Bollocks to that, im keeping pace with the criminals.

    Just to re-iterate how shit life is on these estates, on the day that you move in, you are likely to be robbed of every possesion you own, right in front of your eyes.

    Those f**ers dont wait until you are on holiday, or out at work, they just walk in your house while you are sat watching the telly and take what they want.

    Thats reality for thousands of Brits. not just media hype or bullshit. Full on reality.
     
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