Navy Yard shooting thread

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by DarkLight, Sep 16, 2013.


Page 6 of 6
  1. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    If the guy standing next to the Commander was hit in the Head with a Shotgun Sabot, or Slug, half his head would have been gone, not just a "Hole in his Head".... We are talking 1 Oz of Lead, here now going 500-750 Ft/sec @ 60 Yds.... That is a Freight Train in comparison to a 9mm at the same range.... and if it was Buckshot, why wasn't the Commander also hit, as well, which he wasn't..... .....
     
    BTPost, Sep 17, 2013
    #101
  2. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    I would agree, but I see no reference to how big a hole was made. As for buck shot, he could have been on the edge of the pattern, not the center.
     
    kellory, Sep 17, 2013
    #102
  3. bfayer

    bfayer Keeper Of The Faith

    I keep hearing on the news that he used a shotgun he legally purchased.

    Actually that is not looking to be true. Based on the other stuff they have been saying it sounds like he lied on the form when he bought the shotgun:

    "Have you ever been involuntarily admitted to a facility or involuntarily ordered to outpatient mental health treatment?"

    I'm willing to bet his military medical records show that he has.

    If so, then no he did not legally purchase a shotgun.
     
    bfayer, Sep 17, 2013
    #103
    Motomom34 likes this.
  4. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    Bfayer, involuntary means that he was adjudicated by A Court of Law.... Nothing I have read has said that he ever was in a Court of Law, and convicted, or adjudicated by a Judge, PERIOD. Only a Court can make those judgements, not a Dr. Or any other person. So unless you can show where this Yahoo has been before a Judge, he is free to purchase any weapon he decides is to his liking. Just going to the VA, doesn't meet that standard. If the VA Docs thought he was Loonie, they could put a 72 hour hold on him, but that does NOT meet the test either. If after the 72 Hold, they still think he is a loon, then they go before a Judge, and THAT JUDGE decides, and that does meet the Statutes Requirements, if the Judge decides the guy IS a loon. Even being voluntarily committed doesn't disqualify a person, by itself. Mental Health is a very different world than criminal or civil Law..... .....
     
    BTPost, Sep 18, 2013
    #104
  5. bfayer

    bfayer Keeper Of The Faith

    I am not talking VA. I am talking Military. A lawful military order from a Commanding Officer carries the same weight legally as an order from a magistrate. In the military no one goes before a judge unless they are court martialed. Commanding officers have the authority to order mental health treatment. This is not the same as having a military doctor send you to mental health treatment, or going voluntarily. The actions of the VA or military doctors carry no legal weight, orders from Commanding Officers do.

    If he was ordered to treatment by his commanding officer, he is not necessarily banned from buying a gun, but by answering "No" on his form, it most likely makes the gun purchase illegal.
     
    bfayer, Sep 18, 2013
    #105
  6. Witch Doctor 01

    Witch Doctor 01 Mojo Maker

    This type of order is not always a lawful order and can be refused by the individual... as can orders for medical treatment, the CO then has the option to process a discharge (honorable ) if warranted...

    YMMV
     
    Witch Doctor 01, Sep 18, 2013
    #106
    tulianr likes this.
  7. bfayer

    bfayer Keeper Of The Faith

    In this case as long as the order is not issued in reprisal it is lawful. Reprisal is the only lawful defense to refusing to comply with an order for a CDE, or medical treatment.

    I doubt we will ever find out if he was ordered for a CDE and if mental health treatment was the outcome. It would take a court order to get the Navy to release the records.

    Again my statement was not whether he was banned from owning a firearm, it was if he lied on the form when he did.

    Federal law and Virginia law do not give the purchaser the authority to determine if an order for mental health treatment is or is not a reason to stop them from purchasing a firearm. The purchaser must answer the questions truthfully or they are in violation of the law. It is up to the state to determine if the truthful answers on the form bar the individual from purchasing a firearm. If the state says no, the individual can appeal the decision. Rightly or wrongly, that is how the system works.

    The bottom line is if you lie on the form, the purchase is not legal.
     
    bfayer, Sep 18, 2013
    #107
    tulianr likes this.
  8. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    The above .MIL issue is Mute, in that this Yahoo was NOT in the .MIL at the time, AND he was discharge for the Navy, years ago. So anything that had to do with his .MIL Service, as long as he was NOT Dishonorably Discharged, which he was NOT, doesn't have ANY bearing on his ability to answer the question in the Negative. .....
     
    BTPost, Sep 18, 2013
    #108
  9. Witch Doctor 01

    Witch Doctor 01 Mojo Maker

    My point I that there are legal exemptions for different religious groups that could make this an unlawful order... As a former officer I know this from experience...

    as I said YMMV...
     
    Witch Doctor 01, Sep 18, 2013
    #109
  10. Gator 45/70

    Gator 45/70 Monkey+++

    C.T.D. will be raising prices by 500% in 5...4...3....2....
     
    Gator 45/70, Sep 19, 2013
    #110
    JABECmfg and VisuTrac like this.
  11. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey

    A gun free Mil Zone all over again.

    Sounds like a second act to a bad play.

    Or is this just the new reality.

    Fort Hood a Gun Free Zone.
    DC Navy Yard a Gun Free Zone.

    Seems to be a bit of a common thread here.
     
    HK_User, Sep 19, 2013
    #111
    JABECmfg and tulianr like this.
  12. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    Guns don't kill people. Lack of guns do.
     
    kellory, Sep 19, 2013
    #112
    JABECmfg, tulianr, Sapper John and 2 others like this.
  13. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    melbo, Sep 20, 2013
    #113
  14. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    It has been released that the Yahoo Shooter, did NOT shoot from the 4th floor Balcony, down to the Atrium Floor, during the incident. This misinformation was depicted all over the National News, the Afternoon and Evening of that day. It just shows that MSM will invent News, rather than say "We do not know what happened." They would rather be WRONG, than admit, that they do NOT Know.... And No ONE calls them on it.... Stupid....
     
    BTPost, Sep 20, 2013
    #114
    Yard Dart likes this.
  15. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Yep, it was the director of the fib. Also said it was an 870 until he ran out of ammo for it, then used a 9mm taken from a guard that was shot, no rifle of any sort was used. It's been variously reported that there were 2 9mms used, but haven't see the final numbers on it. Fibby director also chastised the MSM a bit for pot stirring. Thus spake the WSJ (I think it was.)
     
    ghrit, Sep 20, 2013
    #115
  16. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    Ah, but @ghrit.... There was a Long Gun USED, and it was even a Semi-Auto Rifle, of some variation on the AR15/M16 design........
    It was USED to snuff out the life of the Yahoo Perp.....
     
    BTPost, Sep 20, 2013
    #116
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