Lol, "economy" line it is. I really don't care much about brand or who makes it. I am really after performance/cost ratio name or brand means little. I would much rather buy "howa" than weatherby vanguard with the understanding they both come from the same factory production line. I believe one of the browning line is also made for them by howa. What I meant by "choice of calibers" is simply when you buy a new rifle. With the enfield you get .303 at least with savage/stevens you pick from a selection of calibers. At the stevens price it is not worth getting a smith to change calibers. Cheaper to just buy another rifle to get another caliber.
Everyone advertises their method as the best. I'm sure Savage makes a fine rifle, but button rifling isn't the difference. That's actually the fastest, simplest, method of rifling. If you were to make your own barrel at home, that's how you'd do it. The forming process of pressing the button through, does make a stronger rifling. But it adds stresses to the steel that need to be relieved. The process of removing those stresses destroys the metallurgical benefits of forging. Hammer forging has the exact same problem, for the same reasons. Because button rifling doesn't leave the grooves as sharp as cut rifling, it probably does wear better. At least at first. But sharper rifling gives better accuracy. Cut rifling is traditionally the most expensive method, and not usually considered to make enough difference to justify the cost. With low cost CNC machining, that's starting to change.
From what I've read button process was developed later than the hamer forge process that was developed and used to mass produce winchesters. How was it explained to me accuracy wise. The difference between pushing a piece of paper through the air as opposed to pulling it through the air. Pushing it is more difficult as it wants to veer to one side or another. Pulling it is self aligning and more stable. They have less variation via the button vs hammer forged and it contributes to increased accuracy. So yes cutting is superior to either one. Forging is fastest and cheapest buttoning has advantages but slower. The point I was making is that you will not find a balance of price/accuracy better than the savage, stevens line. People almost always are surprised when they find the cheapie savage rifles also happen to be very accurate.
I recently got myself a mossburg atr 100 in 30-06, I have tried it and have been impressed so far. back to the 303. you will have to let me know when you get to try it out. I would like to know if that scope/mount hold up to the recoil
Sure thing, once the holiday craziness winds down I'll run out to a game area and try to find a decent back stop...the mount fits snugly.
The push/pull difference doesn't apply to hammer forging. That process doesn't involve anything passing through the barrel. All the work is actually done on the outside. The mandrel inside the barrel is only there to provide the shape, and it doesn't move. Button and cut rifling can both be done by either pushing or pulling. For a button, pulling generally does give better results. But it's harder on the equipment. For cutting, there's not much difference either way.
Lots of precision shooting circles out there that feel differently. Some swear by button rifleing, and will go out of their way to find out how a barrel was made. I'm just going with what others are saying. But then again some of these others are getting 1/4 inch groupings at 100 yards with a 6.5 mm. Pretty good numbers for a cheapie brand like savage.
Well after a bit of reading I found that hammer forging was developed by the germans for their MG42 machine guns and as far as accuracy is concerned well known for not being very accurate. Apparantly all match competition barrels are either button rifled or single point cut. Nice to know that a low priced savage rifle uses a process that is respected in the match barrel world. http://www.gunsandammomag.com/techside/crown_120804/
I didn't say it was more accurate. I said the explanation you were given about pushing vs pulling was impossible, for hammer forging. If you read about the process, it should be pretty clear why.
I did read about the process the barrel is forced through a mandrell. Isn't that pushing it through ? The process is driven by pressure and not tension is why I refered to it as being pushed through.
I don't know crap about rifle barrels but this found thread has many interesting entries.( grist if you guys are gonna "discuss"the fine points of the rifled barrel.) http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=25991're done. Seems hammer forged barrels have a mandrell inserted in the oversized barrelblank that is rifled in the final dimension and the barrel is hammered or squeezed down around it,withdraw the mandrel(form) and you're done..(?)
Oops, I guess the person that explained hammer forging to me a while back had it wrong. I just saw a cutaway diagram of a hammer forging machine and how it applies pressure. I was told it was from the end much like how thin wall pipes are resized up or down. Apparantly the hammer forging of barrels is done from the sides. Either way my original point was that the cheapie savage uses the more accurate method of rifling. Not the hammer forged process that the more expensive rifles like remingtons or winchesters use. Sometimes you don't get what you pay for.
I thought you said you read about the process??? Do us all a favor and don’t post about something if you don’t know what you are talking about. You seem to think you know it all and I call BS and think you are strictly a theory person that does not have real experience about what you post about, just looking for attention. If I am wrong let’s hear about what makes you such an expert on everything, or what agency you work for that gives you the info you post???
I deleted my last none-too nice reply to you. So you still can't let things go eh ? I will just say I'll pray for you and leave it at that.
Typical reply to direct questions to you. Answer the questions and quit changing the subject. What agency do you work for? The way you avoid direct questions would make you a great politician. Not that I can’t let things go, I just get tired of the BS. If not a gov agent, move out of your mom’s basement and get a job!!! I'll pray for you too.
If you had a valid point I would address it as I have EVERYBODY else here. You just want a pissing match and I'm not interested. Everybody else is worth the time put in your not. Stirr the pot all you want I'm not biting.
Great come back, answer the questions!!! Not trying to get into a pissing match, just wanted some answers to my questions??? that you still are avoiding. What are you trying to hide?
You know funny thing. Tango3 asked me the same question and I answered him. But then again he was worth the time to do so. Your not. If I had something to hide I would not have answered him either but I did. Go talk to someone else, I'm done with you.
"The hammer forging method of manufacture has been proved to produce superbly accurate barrels whose performance improves with use and which may peak in that respect well beyond 10,000 rounds, long after cut or button broached rifled barrels would be regarded as completely worn out. They may also be chrome lined for even greater durability. Unlike the other manufacturing methods, the hammer forging process aligns the molecular structure of the ordnance grade steel thereby gently and evenly work hardening the barrels. This makes them extremely stable in resisting dimensional changes to the bore, even where abrupt and significant transitions to the barrel’s external profile may be involved. For example the highly popular and effective Armalon deep barrel fluting may be successfully applied to forged barrels. The forging process and special mandrels employed are designed so as to produce an even micro taper in each bore towards the muzzle. Thereby, the propulsive gases as far as possible remain encapsulated by the projectile and are unable to scour around the bullet in its track until after its release at the muzzle. The highly skilled art of the barrel straightener is applied many times during the various stages of production, which includes reaming and progressive honing and lapping for premium quality. As with motor tyres, barrels are usually the component that wears out first, especially with heavy use. Even relatively little used firearms which have been inadequately stored or maintained may only need re-barrelling with Armalon hammer forged components to restore them to tip-top performance. " Most rifling is created by either: <DIR><DIR>1) cutting one groove at a time with a machine tool, called cut rifling or single point cut rifling 2) cutting all grooves in one pass with a special progressive broaching bit, called broached rifling 3) pressing all grooves at once with a tool called a "button" that is pushed or pulled down the barrel, called button rifling 4) forging the barrel over a mandrel containing a reverse image of the rifling (and often the chamber as well), called hammer forged 5) flow forming the barrel preform over a mandrel containing a reverse image of the rifling, called rifling by flow forming. A new developed method by MACDOR company Turkey. http://technology.calumet.purdue.ed...gazine - November- 2005 (Vol_ 53 - No_ 7).htm So the mandrel is forced through the barrel blank. How do you get it out afterwards? Must be pulled out somehow. Or more to the point twisted out letting the newly formed rifling act as a screw in the removal of the mandrel. If I understand the process correctly. As to Savage Rifles "unparalled out of the box accuracy" - Guns And Ammo Magazine So I would say that whatever "agency" you have an in with H is feeding you some fairly accurate info. Keep it coming. BTW, I thought this thread was about NC Scopes? </DIR></DIR>
