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Nebraska Shooting - What The Hell Happened

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Mountainman, Dec 6, 2007.


  1. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    This morning cnn has the tearey- eyed witnessses on:
    "and snuffle... he was just shooting boo-hoo, snuffle
    with this BIG GUN...
    talk radio had asound bite of the relative describing an "old gun"then mentioned "sks assault rifle. "
     
  2. hartage

    hartage Monkey+++

    Imagine what could be done with a rifle. See my point ?

    My 1911 will hit black at 25 yards I can do that. I have experience in simulated combat shooting both throuh ipsc (lead) and cqb inside a structure with paintball and simunitions. In some of those cqb excersizes some of my teammates were from SDPD swat.

    I am no badass, maybe that is why I understand how easy it is to get shot assaulting a position. Maybe that is why entry teams are armored up the wazoo and armed with rifles. Even with all their training they shit bricks when they hear someone is armed with an AK in cqb. No way in HELL are they going to engage a target in an open space armed with an AK without a rifle and scoped at that. They are a well trained experienced TEAM and you think you can do it alone with a pistol ? Good luck to you, some of us are not willing to commit suicide like that.

    Now why do you have to resort to insults ? Why do you assume I have no skill just because I don't agree with you ?
     
  3. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    None of us were there. There are way too many variables. to derive absolutes.
    He had a supreme position:high ground
    shooting down from the balcony or upper level opened up the distance between him and any defenders adding to his rifles' advantage.
    he had a max 11 rounds (sks) in the gun.
    he had the element of surprise.
    Believe thats' all the declarations I can make
     
  4. hartage

    hartage Monkey+++

    Now the news places are saying he had an AK-47
     
  5. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Nobody knowingly brings a knife to a gunfight,of course you would have a better chance of killing the whacko with your favorite pet AR (or insert favorite rifle here).Nobody in The us routinely goes shopping with an ar or ak over the shoulder.
     
  6. Tracy

    Tracy Insatiably Curious Moderator Founding Member

    The news lost me when they had a gal on there crying - sobbing - because he shot a teddy bear. Where was her compassion for the lost lives (real lives)?

    My heart and prayers go out to the families of the innocent lives lost, the injured and those that will blame this on the gun, not the shooter.
     
  7. Binford

    Binford Monkey+++

    Exactly what I was going to say. If I'm armed at the mall, it's not going to be a rifle I'm lugging around! It'll be my handgun. One makes use of the tools available to him.

    The presumption posted here was that a citizen with a pistol taking on the rifle shooter was suicide. I stated this was not necessarily so; that it ALL depends on the situation, such as where you are in relation to the shooter, what kind of cover you have, what's beyond the shooter that you might hit, etc. I'd only take him on if the situation was right for it. I ain't suicidal!

    And if you can make it to your car to get your SKS, you might as well hop in and drive off! Or stick around to give your statement to the cops. Unless my family is still in there, I'm not going back in. By then the cops are starting to show up and see you dashing around with a rifle. There's a recipe for trouble!
     
  8. hartage

    hartage Monkey+++


    Maybe we should. If that were the case the first few shots and the kid would have been receiving return fire. I doubt he would get to kill 3 before he was put down. Certain as hell he would not have gotten to 9.
     
  9. hartage

    hartage Monkey+++

    Since you and I are not there then we have to talk in terms of averages. There are exceptions everywhere but averages work when there are few specifics. In your words "if the situation is right". I would say that there will be far fewer situations that are going to be right. Vast majority of the time (average) if you go against a position defended by an AK-47 with a pistol it will be suicide.

    Remember to succesfully attack a defended position of equal firepower you should outnumber the defense 3 to 1 to be likely succesfull. He will be stationary therefore stable in his shooting platform while you on the offensive will be going cover to cover to advance both exposing yourself and denying yourself equal stable shooting platform. Doing this one on one with equal firepower is already suicide. Doing it with pistol vs rifle just stacks the already suicidal odds further against you.
     
  10. Evenglischatiest

    Evenglischatiest Monkey+++

    Has anyone seen any pictures of the gun? All the stories I'm hearing on the news say it's an AK, but most of the written stories say SKS.

    Sure, everyone here knows it doesn't make much difference when you're looking down the wrong end of the barrel. But the Brady Bunch is already having a collective orgasm over the chance to further vilify AK's.


    Tracy-

    Teddy bear hater. ;)
     
  11. hartage

    hartage Monkey+++

    Personaly I feel like hanging the owner of the AK/SKS by his toe nails for not properly securing his weapon that now is going to give the rest of us a bad name. He would be the true M O R O N in this.
     
  12. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I totaly disagree on the idea that a handgunvs rifle in a case like this is suicidal. First off we arent talking about a guy in a fox hole 200 yards away out in the open, he was in a store that had an opening in the floor to look down on the lower levels. So there were other folks around him on the same level as well as below. Any of these folks who were within sight were most likely within 25 to at MOST 50 yards and he was out in the open as well. Based on the pics that one of the news channels had saying 'it was a weapon like this one' it was an AK with a folding stock, also most believable since he had gone inside the mall and up to the third floor then to where he started shooting without it being noticed under some clothes he was carying, so likely as not when he pulled it out he probably didnt even unfold the stock so the advantage was further reduced.

    I carry daily and I know that THAT is the weapon I will have if I have to use one for deffense so I practice with it regularly. Its not a problem for me and I would imagine for MANY folks who carry, to hit consistantly in the kill zone (not just in the black) at 25-30 yards with rapid fire. So at the ranges involved (about as far as likely to be encountered indoors or in a defensive situation) the pistol hits well and same as the rifle, only has to put one round where needed. Now on top of this, if carry is allowed there then there may very well be more than just 1 of his targets carrying so now it may well be 3 to 1 or better.

    If it was me, I would MUCH rather take my chances standing, even in the open, and faceing a phsyco like that with an AK with my pistol and hopefuly survive or at least take him with me than to offer my back as an easy target while I run away and IF I survived know I left him there to slaughter everyone else. Im pretty confident that if he wasnt already targeting me and I was within 30 yards that while I might or might not also be hit/killed, I would take out an unarmored nut job even with my sad little pistol. A pistol round kills just as dead as Barret .50 cal inside of pistol range and pistol range is easily out to 25 yards and not at ALL unrealistic out to 50.
     
  13. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    If nothing else the pistol would save lives. If he shoots someone on the lower level and you(loweror upper level ) draw, turn around fire at him he wil be distracted if not killed out right then he will be thinking of cover not looking for more unsuspecting targets or he'll focus on you and have a little less steady aim because of the return fire.
     
  14. hartage

    hartage Monkey+++

    In the targets I use the black is the kill zone (chest cavity) the rest of the upper torso is just an outline.

    Test out your theory. Use simunitions and go against someone with a rifle in the scenario you pose. If no simunitions available try softair rifle vs pistol.

    I have nothing against trying to save people's lives and trying to stop an attack. If I had half a chance I just might do so myself. I just don't think pistol vs rifle is even half a chance. I'll take a chance at saving others but I won't throw my life away for nothing. (for an extremely unlikely chance)
     
  15. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I figure especialy when you take into account that you also stand a real good chance of being shot i the back while running away since this guy inst just tryig to do a robbery or something, hes useing folks for target practice, then the increase in risk of him shooting you while you shoot at him makes the odds not seem so bad either.
     
  16. hartage

    hartage Monkey+++

    I can see shooting at him to give others a chance to escape while the guy's attention is on you. But the purpose would be a diversion and I would not have expectations of taking the guy out. I would also not be advancing and would most likely already be thinking of the safest way to break contact once I was low/out of ammo.

    That is a realistic choice. I have no rambo based expectation of being a super warrior and taking out a guy shooting at me with an AK. I would just pop up and take a couple of pot shots at him and duck behind cover. See how close his shots come to my previous position. That would influence my next decisions.

    I never suggested just turning your back on the guy and presenting a wonderfull target to him. Breaking contact does not mean running away in his line of sight.
     
  17. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    If your not fighting from where you are then you hare to move to cover/concealment and the time it takes to do that should be plenty of time to draw and actualy even aim in that time then shoot him. Given how unlikely it is that you would be able to find any cover close by in a mall (as in something that would stop a rifle round) and that unless its a hallway leading away and turning then the attacker can still choose to come there and engage you, then I figure the difference in the odds of survival gets a lot closer then add in that IF successful in defending then he dont shoot anyone else either and it makes sense to me.
     
  18. Binford

    Binford Monkey+++

    It all depends on the tactical situation. If my chances weren't good (unless I were backed in a corner with no escape and thus nothing to lose), I wouldn't engage. With a rifle OR a pistol.

    But if the shooter is 15 yards away, occupied with firing in the other direction and I'm behind a concrete pillar at his 4 o'clock. That, gentlemen, is what I'm talking about. I'm an armed citizen. An unexpected surprise.

    There should many, many more such surprises out and about, eh?
     
  19. hartage

    hartage Monkey+++

    Lol, yes in that case I would take the shot(s) also. But that would be a gift. More likely murphy would come along. You wouldn't be on the same level (him shooting down) and you may not even see him till he sees you etc. But yes, with the scenario you posed most competent shooters would take the shot knowing lives could be saved. Even then though I've had my heart pounding before when I've shot. Adrenaline is not your friend when you want to aim.
     
  20. ozarkgoatman

    ozarkgoatman Resident goat herder

    IMHO this is the wrong line of thinking. When I go into a situation, no matter what the odds I know in my mind that I have already won, with out a dought. Never ever secound guess yourself or think that you cannot do something. The mind is very powerfull and if you believe that you can do something you likely will. When I went through hand to hand, the instructor posed this question at the begining of the class. What do you do if you are out of ammo and you are surounded by 500 of your enemy? Answer... simple you kill them, you kill every one of them, you don't stop untill they are all dead!!!!! This line of thinking has served me well is likely the main reason that I am still here and able to type this.

    OGM
     
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